I always know the breakdown when the gig is set up. Usually in MkE  It's the door minus the sound guy ($125) I try to get someone I know doing the door or at least  a good head count as not to g et screwed by door guy letting people in for free. Know how many are on the guest list. Know if beer is free or not. This is not brain surgery. 

Right On! I would do the same thing, particularly having your own door person. If I need to use their house guy (or girl), it kinda is what it is. 

I have a guy who is with me.

If your fan base is big and you know it, and they come out and support you, then the deal could be nice. 

My opinion is that the bar owners are compelled to do their own marketing and draw people to their establishment or venue and your primary job is to entertain the people and drive consumption at the establishment's food and berverage concessions....For a price that is fair, acceptable and upholds the standards of the profession.

Later you will read about a situation that happened to me. Join in if you want.

Cheers

Jesse

Use a ticker to count. Just a suggestion.

This scenario has become all too common. It's happening all over the country. Even the Olypmics have adopted the attitude that it's an ok thing to do. Many don't think of musicians as professionals or even businesses and approach having music much the same as letting girl scouts set up and sell cookies out front. With Fair Trade Music we are working to establish a network of venues that don't and won't behave like that. It takes work in your local community and continued involvement over time to make the changes happen but the ball is rolling. Help push. Get your peers together to talk about it. Contact the local AFM chapter to coordinate starting a Fair Trade Music movement in your community. There are initiatives in various stages around the country in Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Philadelphia and LA. 

Right On. I just started reading your site, but it is a terrific goal you have set. I am showing links to your site to my musician friends and I am sure there will be an interesting thread at my facebook page. we will see, but the thread I have from last weekend is how I came to digitalmusicnews.com.

I will follow you on twitter.

Thanks for your efforts,

Jesse

Thanks for sharing and following. We are actually sitting here working on a site for the larger international movement. I will let you know when it's up. The AFM has chapters all over the US and Canada, there is definitely one in Montreal. This won't change without effort from the local community. Sharing with your friends is a great start. To gain any traction you are going to need buy in from folks you don't know, though. It takes the whole community. 

I want to get involved. Please keep me posted. You can email me at j@digitaln8tive.com

Oh Fistful of Dave .., you are the wise one.  You are the clever one.  We bow to you!  You we worship!

Why does this happen? Simple.

No contract.

Yup, you should have one even for a bar gig, unless you trust the owner like you trust your mother.

Also raises the question: how come they agreed the gig not knowing what they would get paid till they arrived?

If you do that, apologies to Jesse, but you're asking to get crapped on.

"Oh shame you came all this way with all that expensive gear..."

Shit, that crap happens even *with* a contract.

"Oh you were expecting double that? It's in the contract? So fuckin' sue me then".

No wonder Chuck Berry took his cash up front, and set a precident that I'm grateful for, and have benefitted from quite a few times with untrustworthy promoters.

Admittedly I don't know the full story of the above, but hey, you didn't tell it.

He's right about one thing though - don't ever work for peanuts. 

You can see the entire feed on my facebook timeline. For sure, written contracts are always the best instrument. We had a verbal contract. The owner switched up on us. We quit.

Now the owner has called us back, offered us a raise and the bar percentage that we originally had negotiated. Schedule is smaller, but that's ok for us.

There is a contract now...

Also, this was an interesting article that I wanted to re-share.

http://www.reviler.org/2010/09/21/bars-have-bands-to-bring-in-customers/

Another resource besides Fair Trade Music (awesome post btw FTM folks) is Venuology http://www.venuology.com/

Anyone can post reviews of the clubs and create new venues. Not all the major cities are up and running but many are. Seattle/Puget Sound has over 200 venues listed. The more reviews musicians write up the better this site works.

Seattle is having a Fair Trade event on Monday, August 13 at 7:00 pm, 2800 First Ave, Hall 1 (at the corner of First Ave. & Broad St in downtown Seattle). All working/club/freelance musicians are invited to discuss the working conditions in the clubs around town.

MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!! Send concerns, ideas and solutions to:
Email: info@local76-493.org Web: www.SeattleMusicians.org Phone: 206-441-7600

So, 

I know many people might remember the 70's when the economy shit the bed, there was a gas shortage, things like the NYC blackouts etc. There was a distinct pragmatic shift in how venues operated and how bands got paid (if they did). 

Once upon a time in NYC CBGB's was the only place in the area where you didn't have to pay to play, this still happens on the Sunset Strip to this day. 

A few other things happened, Mobile DJ's became prevalent and cost effective, and as entertaining to many. Does any of this sound familiar or in any way relevant to what we're seeing today??

Times change, tastes change, culture changes. There is a movement and a backlash, nodes and anti nodes. Does the state of music and it's perpetual spiral into decommodification effect things? Sure, but this isn't the first time we've seen this happen. 

Though you believe you are a skilled tradesman, and I'm sure you are, that entitles you to nothing (the same way every other person fighting to retain employment out there).

If people were fighting hand over fist to see you in that bar, you'd be paid well.

No one owes you anything, everyone pays their dues, after that some make a career of it others don't.

The deal your club owner offered is not out of line, in fact a draw against the bar is common. I've dealt with it numerous times. 

I agree, this is nothing new.  

Happened then, happens now.

This is not digital, not music (it's business) and not news.

Music is like water a easily acquirable commodity.  Last estimates I had roughly counted 4,000,000 artists/bands in the United States with roughly 350 making a "substantial" economic impact. The bar owners don't have to care about you because another band will gladly play for free.

Get yourself an agent who will negotiate on your behalf and raise your guarantee.  If you have decades of experience/skill this should easily be attainable.  

"No one owes you anything". 

Best comment. Well said. 

One of the biggest debates we have in our groups and networks. See below.

www.birminghammusicnews.blogspot.com/2012/02/worth-of-musician-in-2012.html

I advise and buy for venues of <100 and >10,000 in a national top 30 market area.  I've worked in this business for over 20 yrs. 

Pricing has many variables, not the least of which is the expected revenue from any given size venue. 

Think about how much you might spend to go out to dinner with your wife (or husband or significant other, etc).  Think about how many drinks you have when you go out.

BARS _ The averages are typically under $15 per person for booze only ... 2.5 drinks x $4.50 avg = $11.25 per person = $1125.00 per 100 people.

RESTAURANTS _ Dinner prices typically tend to run in the $10.99 to $18.99 range per person ... so 100 people = $1100 to $1900 in sales .... add $900 to that number if you'd like to count 2 drinks per person ... .... so 100 people could get you $2800 in sales at a restaurant.

Now, factor in every single cost of doing business you can think of ... how much is left?

The average band brings out about 30 people. 

Based on conversations I have had over the years with musicians I deal with, and venue operators ... these numbers are about the same region to region, state to state ...

For bands serious about making money - stay away from bars and restaurants -- that is not where the money is today. PERIOD!

Festival gigs typically seem to pay about $750 ea for LOCAL BANDS.  Top draw locals seem to be able to earn 3-5x as much, and regional/nationals seem to be at $10k and higher.

In a local band and want to make the most money in any market?  Private parties, etc pay the most.  But beward - the audiences are typically older and want you to be a jukebox of hits.

Look to new sources of income if you need more cash.  Check out venues such as Stageit.  They care and are working to help musicians monetize their performances.

At the bottom of the pay-scale yet again... Everyday life as a musician.

.... same in germany! so why don´t you just stop playing in this kind of bars and instead organise your own gig-i-vent by renting a place, doing the promo/social media triggering, cashing in the tickets, the sponsoring, the beverage revenue and doing your merch. be an entrepreneur instead of the ennertainment slave. @ the same time, have a lawyer friend set up a contract earning you a minimum of travelling expenses + 150 bucks per musician to be transferred to your account 72 hours b4 the gig, otherwise...... if you are worth the money, and know other bands who are worth the money too, it´ll take a season or two and you´ll be payed. If not the lifecycle of your band is kinda over & out. no reason to get excited, ´t happens all the time in "real economy!" Rock On!

I agree with this idea!!!! In my case I would not play at these places that don't pay and have the place blacklisted as a no play zone.  Young bands that don't stand up for themselves and keep bending over to play for nothing are making it worse for everyone else.  Create your own venue and shows which is very easy to do and not depend on some crap hole bar that thinks they are doing you a favor.  The music business is not all warm and fuzzy,but you as a musician don't need to bow down to venues that don't pay crap. 

So where do you plan on cutting you teeth?

Friends parties? Bar Mitzvahs? Church Functions?

Playing the "chitlins circuit" is a part of pretty much every band's evolution. It's important to get experience under your belt and play dive bars, for next to nothing. One reason is so you can fail, and fail often with not much to lose. That's part of the growth of every band and artist. It's true that things have been sped up a bit due to technology, but there is absolutely NO SUBSTITUTE for experience, and you need the good with the bad. 

It's important to deal with club owners, shady or otherwise. Not every band should have an agent from the start of their career (or a label, or a manager). 

You should learn through experience, and honestly, if you think you're better than that you should reconsider what industry you're working in. 

I've been touring professionally with bands on every level for over a decade now and I can't tell you how many artists are "gracing" stages now that have no idea what they're doing and have nothing but loads of entitlement behind mediocre at best skillset and experience. 

To quote the earlier comment, No one owes you anything, and you earn your money. If you do a shitty job (from any aspect performance, promotion etc) you don't get paid in any other job, so why is this different??

I cover this kind of stuff in my blog: 

www.bbrods.tumblr.com 

Been there, done that - BUT, learned my lesson.

I find out the straight scoop BEFORE hand (I'm a drummer) and I make SURE I get at least $100 for 3 sets, no more, if so, more $$$.

Just quit a band over this exact crap.  There are so many bands that will play for free (in the Dallas area) that they are creating the idea in club owners mind's that lousy free bands are better than paying for quality shows.  IF the club is known as a music club?  That features LIVE music regularly?  There is a better chance of getting paid fairly.  But some dive bar?  With four bands a night?  Forget about it.

It's like asking your doctor to lower his price (I mean, he spent time and money to get good at what he does) so, what's the difference?   I'll tell you = because everyone wants FREE music now.  If I go to a club, and there is live music, then recorded music on breaks?  I notify ASCAP, give them the club name, and let them handle it.  You CANNOT play other artists music unless you pay a yearly fee.  Studio work is what I prefer.  Know AHEAD of time and if it's the first time with a band?  UP FRONT pay.  I know, been there, done this very thing you are talking about!!!!!

haha, Jesse.... this is the way it is.  There are many reasons, many theories..  the point is, music has been devalued to the point where it affects people going out to see live shows.  Also, most bar owners know nothing about music, but they know their bottom line.  Join a musicians union if you have one in Canada.  Guarantees money up front in a legally binding contract.

I've played hundreds of shows over the past few years and have probably made a total of $600-700 dollars.  It's just the way it is.  You play music because that defines you and you enjoy playing live.  It's not to make a career... otherwise you're Nickelback.  That's just the way it is.  Noone said being a good musician pays the bills.  It sucks, yes, but it's the way it is.

Things may change someday when bar owners decide that it's not up to the bands to bring in crowds, but it's up to them to promote and generate a regular crowd.  The regular crowd has disappeared over the past decade.  Anyway.. my 2 cents.

Jesse

Venues get away with this because there is always ab band that will play cheaper, even if it costs them. Until musicians unite to respect themselves, say NO to unreasonable terms and demand a living wage, you will get this attitude. Consider joining the union, and if your local is not helpful, consider joining Local 1000 of the AFM, www.local1000.org-full of like minded artists who believe in a living wage.

Don't take gigs like that and you won't be screwed by them. Convince your friends to do the same until the bar owners AGREE to reasonable terms. THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.