It's hard to tell from her casting call if she wants musicians or actors.

My experience has been that actors will do anything for free if it means they can get on stage.

Musicians tend to be a little more concerned about compensation for their time.  i.e. If they are charging money at the door then musicians want to get paid.

The post on her website explicitly asks for "professional-ish" horns and strings.

in a nutshell:

"we’re looking for professional-ish horns and strings for EVERY CITY to hop up on stage with us for a couple of tunes."

the deal:

you’d need to show up for a quickie rehearsal (the parts are pretty simple) in the afternoon, then come back around for the show!

we will feed you beer, hug/high-five you up and down (pick your poison), give you merch, and thank you mightily for adding to the big noise we are planning to make.

Oh yippy!

They will give us a free beer... like every other venue and/or promoter who doesn't want to pay for anything.

haha so Classic!

I think that every city that provides a market for todays musician is looking for Professional-ish Artists that employ musicians (btw wtf is that, are you suggesting someone of professional quality that works for free?). In todays world with Venues shutting down and new competition from DJ's etc as headline acts it important that we in the performing and professional services of music support these supporting artists. I hope musical unions protest this accordingly. Good luck Amanda, I'm hopeful this was an oversight and poorly thought out idea, or maybe it was to generate this kind of responce. Either way I will not listen to your music or download it, unless of course its for free and professional-ish. And id its good I will high - five myself and give myself a beer and a t-shirt with my Band Logo. ps you can buy all this and pay for it at our website at www.thepopjunkies.com btw we are a Professional band with a singer songwriter who splits his pay evenly with all the artists that work together in this project.

Sincerely

Craig Allen Olson

www.thepopjunkies.com

And this comes as a surprise? Pleeeze

The old story rich and advantaged exploit the needy & desperate.

Read:

http://www.digiday.com/etc/the-contrarian-take-on-social-media/

"Why does everyone buy into social media if it’s such bullshit? 
You hear all sorts of stories about the latest “viral” hit, or about how someone has a hundred thousand Twitter followers, but it’s all very superficial. Nobody goes, “Well, how did that person get all those followers?” The “how” is critical to the story, but it’s rarely mentioned. Amanda Palmer is a great example of this. She had a successful Kickstarter campaign, and so media outlets were saying, “Look at what you can do with Kickstarter!” and “Amanda Palmer is proof it works!” But nobody mentioned that her husband is one of my favorite authors, Neil Gaiman, and that Amanda was the lead singer of the Dresden Dolls, which has a pretty large following. Those details got omitted from the story, and they’re very important because the Internet is great, if you’re rich, but if you’re like me and just a normal person, it’s a total crapshoot. Maybe you do get lucky. It’s entirely possible, but it’s highly unlikely."

One would think that with the money Amanda Palmer has,  she can afford a manager to handle things like this and advise her.

What money? You clearly didn't read the breakdown of where all of the kickstarter money went.

 She's not an insanely rich musician, as the headline of this article would like to make you think.

Compared to 99% of working musicians out there she is rich.

If I had donated to that kickstarter campaign and saw that she was offering musicains t-shirts and high fives, I would be pissed off. But since I didn't give her any money all I can say is please musicians tell her where she can stick that t-shirt.

Frankly, if she has to stretch her budget, thats her tough luck. A business that doesn't account for payroll doesn't offer to pay in hugs, they go bankrupt.

Since I am big on participatory events, I don't really have a problem with this. However, when she started her Kickstarter campaign, I asked how she was going to pay all the people contributing to the project because I am interested in how creative collaborations are handled in terms of compensation. I'm not surprised she has come under fire for simultaneously raising a lot of money and not paying everyone involved, even if some of the people involved are making very minor contributions.

Very little has been written about creative collaborations, so maybe this will push people to think more about it in advance. If lots of money is raised on Kickstarter, who benefits?

That's wrong on so many levels.

Amanda Palmer can do whatever the hell she wants to. If the explanation above is true, it doesn't sound so bad. So shes asking locals to come jam for a few tunes. Big fuxxing deal! Sounds fun. If I show up want a beer, a hug and t-shirt and then another hug. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go learn to play a horn.

She can do what she wants, and people can call her out. If Romney pulled this crap, he'd be pilloried.

Hipster libertarianism. Lord help us.

Dear Chris,

it is good to see people like you having the balls to speak up against morons like Amanda Palmer.

But I just searched for you on Google Search and all I see there is a MySpace, a Facebook and a Twitter account.

Where is your .com?

If you want this moronic amanda-palmerish-social-media-work-for-free hype to die, you have to support the idea of having your own site.

Respectfully,

a fellow professional musician

Oh I see. So he's not allowed to express an opinion or raise any sort of issues simply because he doesn't have his own website.

Great. Makes perfect sense.

It looks like he's been too busy making records without kickstarter funds and actually paying his fellow musicians.

I agree with this.

"I've been a professional touring musician for 23 years, and I've never heard of you until today."

where are your gigs - a cave?

ADAPT or DIE!

Are you serious?  Are you so small minded to think that everyone knows who she is?  Sorry to burst your little fan bubble but on the scale of known performers and acts, she's pretty far down.

I was in a band that opened for Bjork on her VOLTA tour for 4 dates on the east coast and canada. 

The last date was at Madison Square Garden. We played to about 1,500 ppl as first support, which in the Garden just feels pathetic, though I was happy just to do it (and barely make cab fare home in the process, the band made 500$ total for the slot).

What happened after that was pretty surreal. 

Damien her musical director saw me and my bandmate watching the show from the side of the stage, and on their way out for their encore invited us to play the Reactable synth with them for the last song. 

Being on stage about 19,000 screaming fans in the garden, whether it was my band or not, was easily one of the highlights of my life and something I would pay to do again if I had the option. 

I was blessed with the opportunity and experience, and while this isn't Bjork at MSG, anyone who feels the need to get paid (or offended by her gesture/request) for something like this is severely missing the fucking point.

No, the point is that you're not a very good musician which is why you're not used to playing in front of crowds and are easily swayed by the opportunity.  That's why you'd even be willing to pay for it. 

I'm a professional who's played in front of all kinds of crowds as a sideman, even with major acts at MSG.  Playing in front of a crowd doesn't impress me.  It did when I was 15.

Keep practicing, get better, become a professional and eventually you'll understand what the point is. 

Hey Frank, 

I'm a professional touring and session drummer, producer and music supervisor. I've played with everyone from John Zorn to Shakira.

I continue to command very handsome fees for my services, and guess what? Sometimes I do it for free. I do that because I want to, and if it doesn't make sense financially in the long run, I won't do it. 

I'm not trying to impress you, or anyone, however what I am trying to impress upon you is the fact that experiences like those tend to help inspire people who don't have as much experience or resume, and it also adds to said resume and set of life experiences.

The point for you is obviously not the point for me, and I think it's fair to let Amanda Palmer and whoever wants to play with her decide what the point is for them. 

Happy to hear you got such a great experience at 15, that must have been great. I'm sure that added to a rich career that it appears you already have...

From your description of the Bjork tour, you did get paid. Maybe not much, but you didn't give Bjork's manager the money back at the end of the night with a, "thanks for the experience!" now did you.

I think when people see that she made over a million from her Kickstarter everything jumps to big figures, "if I paid in every city that'd be $350k" or whatever I've seen as an excuse to not pay these people and I feel like there's a nice middle ground. Be respectful of the talent that you're requesting and toss people $100 bucks for the night, its that simple.

Hey Ryoko, So, unfortunately pretty much any and every support act for major headliners not only loses money, they hemorrhage money. Support slots like that at the end of the day are loss leaders where you literally pay to play. What most people see that as is potential cost of  acquisition for new fans, in no way shape or form is about a return on any type of investment immediately, or fee for services rendered.

On that gig, I was hired so I had my expenses covered, cartage for my drums to and from Brooklyn was 100$, altogether the artist that hired me lost over 4k on that one gig and probably around 20k for the whole run.

Fortunately it paid off, shes now signed to roc nation and has a very lucrative career...so in the end I guess you an say it was a solid investment.

You're all missing a gigantic point here; Amanda is not exploiting people, she's gathering fans who have musical abilities (on a city by city basis) to join her on stage for an experience-performance.  What I mean is,  the price tag of 'paying' can sometimes come at a cost greater than the actual payout.  What I mean by that is she will get more passion and amauture (but good) experience from FANS rather than experienced musicians.

mewithoutYou did the same thing and no one called bullshit on them. They asked fans, on each date, to bring an instrument to the show, and in return they get a free ticket and get to hang with the band, and MOST OF ALL, perform with their favorite band.  

She wants FANS who are also musicians to join her on tour.  This is the entire point of the situation. She can, and could, afford to take out these musicians on the entire tour, but the idea here is to have an experience, a new unique performance at every date, to build friendships and to build a stronger fanbase.

 I am not an experienced musician, however I am a fan, and if I could play guitar for my favorite band for one or two songs, I would take it in a heartbeat. That is the idea here.

Obviously, with this, comes the need of some experience or else she's wasting her time. She can't teach someone how to use a tuba day of show, so she's requesting somewhat experienced people who already know how to play to join her on stage and get free shit in return.

Then this is what the ad should have said

"Need some fans to come on stage to be in a performance. The thrill of show business and being allowed to be in close proximity to me on stage will be your compensation."

This is great:

"Need some fans to come on stage to be in a performance. The thrill of show business and being allowed to be in close proximity to me on stage will be your compensation."

It's a shame to see a few fans defending her on this. Didn't she write an article in Billboard recently about how she doesn't need a manager or assistant anymore because she can just go on Twitter and ask fans to do things for her for free?? Things like supply her with instruments, play in her shows, feed her, house her band, drive her around. And your payment is that you get to be in her proximity for a few minutes. Hahahaaaaa! 

This is great:

"Need some fans to come on stage to be in a performance. The thrill of show business and being allowed to be in close proximity to me on stage will be your compensation."

It's a shame to see a few fans defending her on this. Didn't she write an article in Billboard recently about how she doesn't need a manager or assistant anymore because she can just go on Twitter and ask fans to do things for her for free?? Things like supply her with instruments, play in her shows, feed her, house her band, drive her around. And your payment is that you get to be in her proximity for a few minutes. Hahahaaaaa! 

Exactly. This is what they teach on social media courses. Get fans, create a personality cult and get everything for free. I watched her on a youtube video at a social media conference. LOL

Fan or not fan, I need to pay my bills. I am a totally never die Depeche Mode fan. If they rang me up to sing backings for them I still wouldn't do it for free. Even as an eternal fan who knows all songs by heart.  

WHY NO FLORIDA. great idea by the letter writer

The headline of this article is extremely misleading, Paul.

You have taken a look at the breakdown of where all of the kickstarter money is being spent, right? Many people try and make it seem as if Amanda received 1.2 million in donations. Not so. It was 1.2 million in pre-orders, to be a bit more accurate.

To anybody who is complaining that AFP is asking for volunteers (not exploiting innocent musicians), because she 'raised 1.2 million dollars on kickstarter'... please, go educate yourselves.

http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/  

holy shit she's a grade A idiot

I'm not trying to knee jerk the other side but there's some really great profit in all of this if you read this carefully, let me give you some examples:

1. quoting:

"first i’ll pay off the lovely debt – stacks of bills and loans and the like – associated with readying all of the stuff that had to happen BEFORE i brought this project to kickstarter.

for the past 8 months or so, i wasn’t touring – and therefore wasn’t making much income – but every step of the way, there were expenses. so, during that time, i borrowed from various friends and family who i’d built up trust with over the years."

Okay, so Kickstarter is paying about $250,000 in previous debt. Now in a financial structure you could count all of that into the 'kickstarter/album project cost bucket' but that doesn't sound right.  Rather I'd say a portion (let's say 50%) could be directly attributable to this project.

Let's say $125,000.

2. quoting:

"are we at under $100k yes? why, yes! how the fuck did THAT happen?"

OKay, then $75,000?

I could go through all of the expenses and costs she is citing (many things seem needlessly expensive) but we're already seeing $200,000.

3.  Then wasn't the campaign finished at $1.2 MM?  yep $1.192 to be exact not $1MM as she quoted.

which leaves us with nearly:

$400,000 profit.

Just rough estimates not a thorough audit.  But I think she can pay some union wage musicians.

Taxes.

Hmm, not sure how taxation works on crowdfunding but don't think so.  IRS taxes on profits, so guessing would not be $400,000.  

Everything wrong with employment in America today.

amanda palmer's music should not be tossed aside lightly, but rather tossed aside with great force ... never cared for her pretentious dresden dolls tripe, was intrigued by the kickstart to give a second listen, tried to like, but now after this asinine anti-musician stunt, i'll just flush her down the toilet. 

I'm more or less with you on that one, Billeeto. And I think this is often times an overlooked aspect of the whole Amanda Palmer zeitgeist- is her music any good?

I think her Dresden Dolls music is the best stuff she's made (although I wouldn't count myself as an actual fan, but the aggressive-piano-drums-cabaret-punk-darkwave vibe is an attention grabber, no?).

As a musician myself, I've always lost respect for artists who break onto the scene or score a big hit with a cover song, e.g. Limp Bizkit's 'Faith' or Orgy's 'Blue Monday', because to me it's indicative of a band who might not be all that talented and are just looking for the easiest way onto the radio. (Not always, but often times). And worse yet are the parody bands who are counting on some schtick or comedy angle to get noticed.

And AFP has covered all those bases with recent albums of Velvet Underground covers and one of Radiohead covers performed on ukulele. From all indications, she is the female Weird Al Yankovic.

She's obviously a talented musician. But I think if she wants any kind of sustained career with future massive Kickstarter campaigns and with people volunteering to be in her band if only for one performance, she's gonna have to flex that talent and pump out some higher quality music than those chuckle-inducing efforts.

But then again, it seems like she's doing OK that way she's doing it, so I may be way off base.

This is a great article, and what a wonderful response. Musicians do not only deserve to be compensated for their hard work, but NEED to be. To take it even further, if you download a song for free illegally you should be giving back to the artist accordingly on http://www.HumanFankind.com .. they worked hard and it made you happy, didn't it?

How aboout all the years "artists" were riiping the shit off of their audience via overpriced c.d.'s and concert tix that they colluded with the thugs in the "biz" with to stoke their vainglorius onanistic shitty "music". Read Hit Men you delusional twat!

Yeah, all those classically trained backup musicians were swimming in hookersand blow, weren't they? Hell. I remember when Kronos Quartet were lighting their cigars with hundreds onstage.

Get a grip. We're not talking about The Eagles here, we're talking about people who are trying to make a living, and PAlmer has just made it harder.

She got $1,2 mil and she says she will keep 500,000 for herself.

If she had only received the $100,000 she asked for through Kickstarter, how much would she keep for herself?

Any answer from her other than "50,000" means this whole Kickstarter thing was a setup for money laundering.

Some of you people missed the word "VOLUNTEER" in the headline.

She's not forcing anybody to work for free.

Or ripping them off afterwards.

VOLUNTEER - look it up in the fucking dictionary.

Is Amanda Palmer donating the proceeeds from the tour to charity? If she is then it is ok to call them volunteers.

Amanda is trying to make a buck.  This isn't habitat for humanity or the peace corps.

I would have more respect for her if the advert read

"Need some fans to come on stage to be in a performance. The thrill of show business and being allowed to be in close proximity to me on stage will be your compensation."

Let me guess, you're voting for Obama again.

You sound like the kind of dick sucking asshole who complains about people trying to make a living while denegrating anybody who decides to ask for a little free help from people who are happy to contribute.

Why don't you take your fucked up, immature, and convoluted theories about what artists should do and shove it up your ass?  And if you're a fat union asshole, fuck off. 

You just want to be an authoritarian dick.  Just like Obama and his cunt wife.  Fuck you.

Flame On!

Guess what - she's a boss now. A "job creator." having the capitol means paying the bilks and taking the risks. 

Making money off of someone else's work and goodwill isn't crowdsourcing, it's a Ponzi scheme.

Wow its pretty funny to see all the musicians whining away about this here. Yeah yeah, you hate me now because I said that. I worked in the industry for a long time. Let me tell you that most musicians who want to make it do a lot of shit for free and it sucks. Even more often, the musicians are told they'll be paid, and sometimes they don't really get paid or paid much at all. That's not cool. But this is very very different. Did you not see her asking for Volunteers? You can try to shame her all you want, and yes, it is kind of shameful to take all that money then not hire musicians at union rate. However, it also is super-lame to go right into "Whaaa Whaaa, mommy I want my blankie, this woman won't hire me, a poor starving musician, instead she's taking people to work for free!" Well how the hell do you think anyone who works in ANY industry feels when interns will do their jobs for free? Do you think they all get Union rates normally anyway?? Hell no. Most people don't have any union rates or protection, or anything. You musicians are no different from anyone else vying for limited jobs in a very desirable industry. Get your heads out of your asses, consider that nobody owes you anything, consider that you decided to go into music even though you knew it was very likely you'd be broke, make little to no money, have to tour on pennies, and live a little shitty to make it all happen. That's your JOB. That's what you signed up for. That's your LIFE. So shut up, man up, woman up, whatever up, and go find a paying gig elsewhere, because she ain't paying, she's asking for VOLUNTEERS. If you don't want to do it, great, don't. In fact, I'll bet she gets shitty quality musicians in most cases. However we all know there are plenty of people who will want to do this for free, and so does she. It will be an opportunity for some, fun for others, and you guys can take your negativity and shove it you know where, while you whine and moan about how hard it is to be a musicians - nobody told you it would be easy, nobody told you it would be profitable, and in fact most people probably told you the opposite. In no way do I support this woman and what she is doing, but its just unnacceptable to watch everyone bitch and moan and complain about it, just not really the way to live your lives and become successful. Don't get your panties up in a bundle, this isn't personal, I support musicians in general, but you gotta accept its a hard life and nobody wants to listen to complainers - even if you had something to complain about, keep it to yourself, keep it positive, and good luck with your career.

I know this statement is not by definition irony but I can't pin down the irrationality of a comment that complains about complaining.

Paradoxical? Absurd?

Can someone with a degree in English help me out?

"its just unnacceptable to watch everyone bitch and moan and complain about it,"

"nobody wants to listen to complainers"

"even if you had something to complain about, keep it to yourself"

Youre sooo right! Asking to be paid for you dork is so immature!

Its much more mature to ask your fans to bail you out when you can't budget properly.

BTW, unpaid interns are legally obligated to not do the jobs of paid employees.

Youre sooo right! Asking to be paid for your work is so immature!

Its much more mature to ask your fans to bail you out when you can't budget properly.

BTW, unpaid interns are legally obligated to not do the jobs of paid employees.

Isn't she married to Neil Gaiman? I don't think she is hurting for money. If this isn't a gimmick, why doesn't she want to pay even semi-professional musicians who should be compensated for their contribution? 

I suppose along those lines, since she's married to Neil Gaiman she shouldn't do a Kickstarter either.  She doesn't have the right to ask fans to contribute to her album, her tour, or ask them to have fun playing a couple songs with her for a single night for beer and bling.

I'm amazed at all the misogynists who think they know how Amanda Fucking Palmer should act.

I agree, just because she lives in a nice apartment on Manhattan and really doesn't have to gig to put food in her mouth isn't the point.

However, this is not misogyny. Describing it as such ruins the validity of your argument.

Anyone, male or female, that asks musicians to come on stage and perform without getting paid knowing that after the gig that person is walking to the box office to collect the proceeds, then that person, male or female would get some negative criticism.

It's not misogynist to ask her to act like a decent human being and pay people who work for her.

If its not in the budget, she should find the money. She writes that she  added $20 k to her video budget. To claim she has that surplus and then claim poverty on the musicians is pathetic.

This about expectations.

If she had hired real musicians then the paying public would expect a crertain degree of entertainment and professionalim for their money.

If she gathers a group of local fans (and I presume that she will introduce them as such) to get on stage and make a noise then the expectations are much lower and it becomes a funny, kitschy on stage party that the crowd giggles at when it sounds like what it is, a group of  her fans willing to embarass themselves onstage for nothing more than the privilege of standing on stage next to Amanda Palmer.

Except thats not what she's doing. She's asking them to auction, learn charts and rehearse. In others words, be professional.

I think she uses the term"professional-ish" (kinda like truthiness).

Anyway, it's the audience expectation I am talking about.  If you pay to see a show and some of the string and horn section flails then you start to wonder about why you spent money on the show.

However, if the "star" of the show introduces the band as fan volunteers then it's kinda funny when they flail and trainwreck.

Personally I would still feel ripped off, but I think others would get a chuckle.

From what I have read on this board and elswhere.

1. Many folks don't know or care who Amanda Palemer is. Count me in that group.

2. She raised $1 Million- good for her.

3. PAY YOUR MUSICIANS YOU FUCKING LOSER.

4. Fini

Thank you.

In my experience string players are very 'nuts and bolts' when it comes to money. They don't work for free. Certainly if you want any of them to play in tune! Horn players are a little more concerned about beer but again, if you want a good player, they need paying.

She might get some crappy players to show up, play bloody awful and make her look bad. You usually get what you pay for.

Agreed. Especially if there is a "rehearsal" then that needs to be paid also.

I have to agree with Chris...you get what you pay for. I've worked with PROFESSIONAL string players who have tuning issues. If Amanda wants to invite semi-pro players on stage, good luck with the quality control. More importantly though, I believe it's possible Amanda is simply trying to extend the original spirit of Kickstarter. As a veteran of the old label version of music biz, I'm happy to see artists and fans using the internet to bypass the middle men. The recording industry was destroyed by attorneys and bean counters. If the artists and fans can connect and create a new model built on synergy and mutual respect, I'm all for it. If you are a "professional" musician who won't play for free, you are not what Amanda is looking for here. I think it sounds like a fun "performance art" moment, stretching the concept of live music and spontaneous art. I wish more musical artists would get creative with the "live" medium and get back to more of the Alice Coopers and The Residents and less of the "all dancing all singing" Vegas revues we've been stuck with for years. Keep stretching, Amanda...don't let the muso-pros get you down.

Yeah, that's bullshit. She's paying pro musicians for major markets where presumably she doesn't want to embarrass herself.

If you run a business, you have to be prepared to eat your losses. 

Amanda Palmer fail.

Let's see how Amanda will react on this. Everyone deserves a second chance.

Anybody is free to do what they want, as a vocal coach of mine used to say, it all depends what you want to be known for...and as someone said above there is no one point, different reasons different people do different things. One argument that really gets to me though, especially when it comes from non musicians, is "Hey if you want to make money at music you're in it for the wrong reason"..Don't we all want to make a living, I mean, don't we all need to make a living!? And I always want to ask said person who says crap like that: "So, you've told your boss or who ever you work for, that you don't want a pay check, right? Cause you're doing your work for the right reason, right, the love of it, right?"

Oh and then I can hear "Yeah, but this is music, you're lucky to be doing something creative", blah blah blah. Which reminds me that we need to continue to build awareness and have a conversation about the importance of arts in everybody's lives. Music is a crucial part of life. I personally do it because I love it, or I would've stopped a few years ago. But it's one of the things I have to offer and contribute. If I choose to help out, or do something for free, it's my choice. But I certainly am not going to feel bad about making a living at it. When a doctor trains for years it is with the expectation that when he/she becomes a doctor, he/she will get paid for his/her work. When musicians work hard at developping their skills, make sacrifices for years, as far as I'm concerned they are just as entitled to be treated fairly.

I don't care what Amanda Palmer chooses to do. Nor the people who chose to join her. I hope they have fun! I just wouldn't parade this way of doing things as the be-all end-all. It's what works for her, and them. It's not necessarily the new business model. It's hers. She's entitled to it. Everyone is free to choose to participate or not. It's tough paying musicians, but when I play with my full band that's what I choose to do.

Actually, you are incorrect.  Check out my comment below.  You may think that anyone can do what they want.  Fortunately, that doesn't mean that employers can do whatever they want.  The law clearly states that even if workers want to work for free, employers are not allowed to let them work for free.

That's why we have minimum wage laws and other workplace guidelines.
 

**Amanda Palmer responds on her site -- to another artist who was also complaining.***

hola comrades!

i am so happy that many of you are deeply loving the record, the response has been absolutely out of control….just amazing. glad that everyone’s getting their kickstarter stuff.

more on that later. for now….

this is my response to a letter that was posted a few days ago from a musician named amy, who was upset that i’ve put the call out for volunteer horns and strings for my upcoming tour.

you can read her entire letter here: http://amyvs.weebly.com/1/post/2012/09/letter-to-amanda-palmer.html

please weigh in with your own comments. as always: discuss, discuss, discuss. please be kind to one another. there’s a million issues at play here, and per usual, i’m loving hearing everybody’s opinion.

…………

dear amy,

first of all: thank you so much for writing your letter. it’s definitely got me (and a lot of other people) thinking and talking about what it means to ask a musician to volunteer their time.

if my years working as as street performer taught me anything, they taught me to accept help in every way, to never be too proud or afraid to ask for it. i never got pissed at a passerby for not throwing change in my hat. i stood there knowing that maybe 15 people later, maybe 20, maybe 100…someone would. it’s literally an opposite strategy from someone deciding that they, on principle, won’t gig for free.

i’ve built my life as a musician, like many many people in rock and roll, playing for free….a LOT.

or playing for beer.

playing for exposure.

playing for fun.

playing just to be able to sell merch.

playing to do somebody a favor.

playing a benefit to help a cause.

sometimes even paying for my own travel for the privilege of playing with my idols. (the dresden dolls lost a lot of money in order to travel around opening up for nine inch nails. and good lord, were we grateful to lose that money…it won us a huge bunch of fans).

i’ve passed the hat for myself at shows and events where i wasn’t officially paid, and a lot of times i’ve encouraged my openers to pass the hat to supplement a small or non-existent opener budget.

in 2008, i took the danger ensemble – four australian performance artists/actors and a violinist (lyndon chester) – on tour with me for no salary. i made sure they had places to sleep (usually with fans) and food to eat (usually brought by fans). they passed the hat every night at the gig. it worked really well. they were happy to take the risk.

i’ve played a ukulele to hundreds of people on a beach for hours, for free. and i’ve been paid thousands of dollars for a one-hour show at boston symphony hall. i don’t consider one more legitimate than the other. in fact, i believe that the two experiences feed, inform, and compliment one other. pretty much every seasoned rock musician i know has a pretty locked-in sense of what their time and talent is worth, and it changes day to day, moment to moment. david byrne came and sang with my band a few months ago. we never had a formal arrangement…we paid him in thanks and beer which i’m not sure he even drank. a few nights ago we played at bard college and the opening student band, dr. skinnybones, asked if i would sing a song with them during their set. i drove over to their house and practiced it with them the night before and hopped up with them for five minutes the next night, before my own band went on.

i didn’t ask them to pay me, and everybody knew that wasn’t what it was about. it was about me thinking that it was going to be fun, and them having the guts to ask me to do it. i could have said no and spent that extra time in my dressing room, getting ready and hanging out with my band. i don’t think they would have been pissed at me if i’d declined. but i played for free. i was happy to do it.

now: YOU don’t have to play for free. but i hope you won’t criticize me for wanting to. and hope you would try not to criticize or shame other musicians for making their own decisions about how to share their talent and their time.

there’s also been a general misunderstanding that i need to put to rest: every person on my stage gets paid differently – and not EVERY musician up there, even in the string and horn corps, is a strict volunteer. when we mapped out this tour a few months ago, i sat down with jherek bischoff, my touring and recording bassist (along with being the string arranger AND my opening act). jherek is, like the other permanent touring members of my band, on a salary. part of his job is that he’s in charge of email-organizing the string section, as he’d also be using them as his quartet (as an opening act), and he wanted to make sure we got the best we could get for what we could afford given our tour budget.

there were cities like new york where jherek – and everyone in the band – really wanted to make sure we had a 100% tried-and-true string corps. he didn’t want to bank on possibly risky volunteers that night. chad raines, my guitarist, who’s also in charge of wrangling the horns, agreed on that front as well. so we called our more professional horns and strings friends in new york, and we freed up the budget to pay them. we’re doing that in some cities, and in some cities it’s a total grab-bag of strangers on stage.

it’s very important to me that we clarify that – not everything you see on stage is black and white, and those specific musicians in new york (and in some other cities) who got paid shouldn’t be put in the same category as the volunteers. WE called THEM personally because we had lots of experience with them and knew what we were gonna get.

so you know (and because a photo of them has been circulating), in NYC, they were: sam kulik (who i know from our co-touring days with nervous cabaret), matt nelson (who’s also in tUnE-yArDs), kenny warren, phil rodriguez, and “moist” paula henderson (aka Secretary). as many people saw, they ripped it UP on the webcast. sam and paula also showed up to play our kickstarter celebration (and were paid in money…AND beer).

in new york and in DC, three of the eight or nine horn and string players were actually from our opening bands: kelly and alec from the bandRonald Reagan hopped in on sax duty, and jessie from The Simple Pleasure volunteered to play viola at any gig she was at. in DC, we had a combination of people from the opening bands, a couple of horn players who were strict volunteers, and three string players from Classical Revolution who also volunteered their time.

the upshoot? every single city is totally different. sometimes paid. sometimes not.

it’s sometimes messy. sometimes not. sometimes slightly risky. and therefore, in my opinion, fun.

and sometimes there’s a grey area. Ronald Reagan is getting paid to be our opener, but they also happily volunteered to join our horn corps on top of their opener duty…plus they’re making money selling merch, and we donated two bunks on our tour bus so they could travel with the band and not have to follow us in a van. does the math all work out? who knows. but we’re all happy with the situation. we feel blessed to be on tour with people like Ronald Reagan who are willing to make it up as we all go along and play this many-hats game on stage. those are the people i love playing with.

………..

your concern reminds me of the complaints i’ve seen from musicians who insist that i’m “devaluing” their own recordings by giving my music away for free and encouraging people to pay what they want for it (which is how i just released my new record). i get the impression that they see me as a force of evil who is miseducating the public to think that “music should be free.”

here’s what i think about all that, and it also applies to this paid/non-paid musician kerfuffle:

YOU HAVE TO LET ARTISTS MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS ABOUT HOW THEY SHARE THEIR TALENT AND TIME.

especially in this day and age, it’s becoming more and more essential that artists allow each other space to figure out their own systems.

the minute YOU make black and white rules about how other artists should value their own art and time, you disempower them.

anyone is allowed to crowdfund a record.

and anyone is allowed to crowdsource a musician.

or a pair of socks. or a place to crash. or a meal. anyone.

the band at the local pub can do it, i can do it, tom waits can do it, and justin bieber can do it (his fans would FLIP to be up on that stage making music with him. i’m imagining a crowdsourced belieber playing violin on “boyfriend” right now and loving the image, truly. it’s also fun to think of tom waits wearing fan-knit-socks.)

i could ramble on about my million-dollar Kickstarter and where that million dollars actually went (actually, i already did that, in a blog over here)…and i could tell you that i wish i had enough money to hire a second tour bus and put eight full-time musicians on salaries. but the funny thing is: i actually don’t. i don’t wish that. not right now.

because this isn’t about money. for me, this is about freedom. and about choices.

you see, with this tour, i originally fantasized that we’d write super-easy-to-learn parts, and then musician volunteers – of varying backgrounds and skill level – would join us to play them, in every city. as an experiment, as the concept behind the grand theft orchestra. we are the media. we are the orchestra. it sounded like a really FUN way of doing a tour, and so far, it really has been. it has worked out great for all involved. it’s pretty much worked out the way we envisioned, with some changes here and there (using paid pros in some markets, using our openers, etc).

here’s another good way of thinking about it: we constantly crowdsource food. across the world, our fans volunteer to spend a whole day, sometimes more, cooking and arranging to get warm food to the venue: it’s a truly magical feast sometimes. and it’s a simple exchange: we ask them to volunteer, they volunteer joyfully.

these people (some of whom are real-life professional chefs) have to actually lay down money, sometimes hundreds of dollars, for all the food they cook and bring us. they choose to spend their talent, time, (and money) cooking for the band. then they come eat with us. our gratitude is huge. we don’t have to order take-out from the falafel joint next to the venue, we get to meet cool people instead. i’ve made some great new friends like that. it all works out pretty great.

is it always perfect? hell no. do we sometimes end up with a five-course gourmet feast one night, and a sad/bland potato salad the next? hell yeah. is it worth it, and do we eat our sad potato salad with a smile? you bet we fucking do.

i’ve never come under fire for crowdsourcing food…but can you see the parallel? you could call us out for not putting our money to the local falafel joint, or for not hiring a cook for the tour. but that’s not the way we see it. we just see the joy around the table backstage as the rider wine flows and everybody involved has a good hang.

it’s an inexact, unpredictable science. and that’s part of why it’s great.

the volunteer musicians have been the same. we’ve been doing this for over a year now.

sometimes we get seasoned pros, sometimes we get people who barely play at a high school level.

sometimes it’s a lot of work. and every night, we work with who and what we’ve got.

and it’s a risk, a game we love playing. it isn’t always easy, but it’s always worth it. and i wouldn’t have it any other way. i’ve met some fantastic people through it.

and honestly: i’d take a less experienced horn player who was overjoyed to be on stage for the fun and experience over the pro who’s clocking in to get paid and doesn’t care about me or my band any night of the week.

i talked with jherek about this a lot yesterday, and he noted that there HAVE been a handful of people who he’s reached out to – friends of friends – who’ve responded in the vein of “love to do it if it was a paid gig…but here’s the email of someone who might be game!”

jherek always invites those helpful folks to be on the guest list anyway.

and prompted by your letter (and the following avalanche of comments on my blog) i did what i always try to do: go to the source.

i had a great talk backstage at the 9:30 club last night with the three string players from Classical Revolution DC who’d volunteered their time.

jherek and i asked them point blank what they made of this whole issue. they said they firmly stood by their decision to come play the gig. they knew what they were responding to, and they didn’t feel at all violated. one of them told me he often plays violin for heavy metal gigs, for free. they were happy to be playing with us. and we were really happy to have them. and YOU’LL be happy to know we gave Classical Revolution (along with the players) a big shout-out from stage. we’re grateful.

as the musician in charge of the show, the reality – not the theory – is always more important to me.

this has been the onstage checklist since i first started touring, and it’ll probably never change: is everyone on stage happy – both the salaried musicians and the volunteers? does everyone feel welcome? appreciated? respected? is everyone enjoying themselves? and most importantly: does everybody have a drink????

the reality of the players and the feeling in the room is more important to me than anything.

i have close friends who are selling their albums on bandcamp for $10, whereas i keep my stuff at $0 or $1, and it doesn’t get in the way of our friendships: in fact, we compare notes about how business is going. we share, we muse, we know that there’s no correct solution, only a collection of thousands of paths.

this collection of paths, not a singular truth, is where the future of music and art is headed, i think. and the biggest service we can do for each other, as artists, is to respect the differing path of our fellow artists, because believe me…it’s going to start happening a HELL of a lot.

jherek and i (and my whole band and management team) are going to keep trying to figure out how to pay people how and where we can, as we have been already, and your letter will help kick our asses further in that direction. for that, i thank you.

and as my touring budget changes, i’m sure so will the onstage configurations, and every night will continue to be a work-in-progress. jherek has done GREAT on merch the past few nights (his new record is HERE and is incredible) has decided to give part of his road-merch profits towards the musicians each night until we are at a point that we can consistently pay, since he feels like he’s getting a lot of mileage out of the players. and i’ll keep looking at my own budget and paying people as much as i can, where and when i can. we may talk to the bands about hat-passing. and we’ll figure it out as we go. we’ll grow.

so, in closing:

i would never criticize or judge you for drawing your own lines and deciding how to value your talent and time.

more power to you, for real. it takes a strong commitment to do that, and i wish you luck.

in exchange, i’d ask that you not criticize us because we belong to a different culture, where we’re playing a different game, with different rules.

and we’re making a pretty joyful noise, and we’re happy to welcome those, with no judgement, who want to hop on stage and make it louder.

from one musician to another

with loads of love and respect,

afp

p.s. cello-fiend and friend zoë keating wrote “I would not be where I am today if not for years of playing concerts & opening slots, for free or for expenses” (and a lot more) on her twitter (follow her at @zoecello) AND Unwoman‘s guest editorial HERE for SF Weekly was a lovely musing about all these shenanigans.

p.p.s. if you want a perspective from someone else from the classical music world explaining why they were happy to volunteer, this just came in and is a good read: http://whatbettyknows.com/2012/09/13/why-i-volunteered-to-play-with-amanda-palmer/

p.p.p.s. amy, if you’d like to come watch our show in portland on september 28th, we’d love to have you. drop us a line if you would, and we’ll put you on the list.

"Different game with different rules" indeed.

Amanda's conceited, self serving, one sided argument/rationale is filled with strawmen, false syllogism and improper analogies

I'll take just one example.

When you ask fans to volunteer to provide food I have no doubt that they are glad to do it. However, I am sure they would not be so glad if you took the food ate some of it and then sold the rest without compensating the chef.

I won't even touch the Justine Bieber comparison, that is just pathetic.

I didn't know Bernie Madoff had a daughter.

So I guess Amanda Palmer's husband is not a fan of her music. He is a millionaire and still won't help her make and album and tour.

She asked for $100,000 but had $250,000 of debt. She would still be $150,000 in debt and no album or tour for her "fans".

That's where the story should have ended, dear fucking bloggers and twitters. I don't care for the rest. This person is a criminal.

So, which agency's fucking job is to throw this criminal in jail?

FBI? IRS?

I believe that is normal corporate financing.

Amanda finances the creation, promotion and distribution of her "art" the way... let's say... McDonald's or Nike would.

I can't really explain why, but all this jealous butthurt in the comments makes me want to throw more money at Amanda Palmer.

I am starting a tour.

Please donate to my project.

I can ask some of my employees to work for free also if that will get you to donate.

Yeah, I guess we all want to punish success.

FFS, even Romney pretends to be a job creator. Since when did screwing people over become hip?

success != exploit

In this case, Success very much fucking = exploit.

I've had to rethink my whole approach to interns in the past couple of years and I've research the legalities of using interns.  Here are the federal guidelines:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf

One of the key guidelines is:  "The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern."  If the employer (Amanda Palmer), derives benefit, then the intern can not work for free even if they agree to do so.  ALL of the 6 guidelines have to be met in order to legally permit an intern to work for free.

Therefore, it is my contention that Amanda Palmer is violating US Department of Labor laws by even allowing the musicians to play for free.  It's not the choice of the musicians to play for free.  It's illegal for Amanda to let them play for free.

Shame on you Amanda. 
 

My head just completely exploded. 

What would this country look like if everyone actually operated by that code. What would the Music Industry alone look like?

Do you really think anyone in any capacity got where they were by being entitled to something or anything?

Beyond that, the person who is offering work or experience should be penalized or think twice about sourcing any type of gratis work or apprenticeship?

I just can't believe you actually wrote that. 

Shame on her. Right. 

More like pray for you. 

Best of luck with that....

Do you mean what would the country look like if everyone got paid for work they perform?

Or do you mean someone who thinks they are entitled to being paid for work is wrong?

Finally, does your head always explode when someone quotes the law?

Steve,

Why don't you blow the whistle on this whole thing and get the associated authorities involved??

Wouldn't that be the best way to prove your point across to the world be by getting a nice fat precedent set???

You can get the press, all the musician unions on it, I think it could be a real hot topic. 

And Amanda Palmer would never have to pay for an ounce of PR for another decade. 

Further proof, as if anyone needed it, that there is no 'artist' out there more exploitative of their fanbase than Amanda Fucking Palmer.

Tour musicians will get "free merch." LOL.

Bad form.

Dear Amanda...Piss off.

With her request for volunteers -- three or four saxes and brass and a string quartet that "gets to BE the opening act" -- Amanda Palmer has shredded her reputation as a "groundbreaking" indie artist. She's become just another musician that achieves commercial success and profits off the dreams and aspirations of others. 

Sign our petition here:

http://www.change.org/petitions/amanda-palmer-pay-all-the-musicians-that-perform-on-your-tour

Can you get away this anymore, especially after hitting the Kickstarter lottery? Apparently not: after soliciting for dozens of volunteer, 'professional-ish,' unpaid musicians to join her recently-started tour, Amanda Palmer is now facing some backlash from the musician community.   

Like this professional touring musician, who asked Palmer to at least pay minimum union rates - especially when asking for qualified players that are screened beforehand.  He wants her to change her mind.    

amandapalmer.net: "Wanted: Horn-y and String-y Volunteers for the Grand Theft Orchestra Tour!!!"

(Written while listening to The Used.)