Didn't you see the blog where she broke down her expenses from the Kickstarter campaign to estimate that she'd take home $100k and then blow it all on tour expenses? 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amandapalmer/amanda-palmer-the-new-record-art-book-and-tour/posts/232020

Given the production value of all of the Kickstarter rewards and of her shows (of which I've seen two on this tour — she claims to break even or lose money on tour dates as is), I really doubt she took home $400k in profit.

I just read through that blog post you linked to.. very informative.

I notice that she includes herself in the 'management team' that is getting 15% of the total raised. Fair enough, she should take a wage.

There is also no account for any of the profits made (ie all of the CD sales, streaming revenue, tour profit etc etc) after the CD is released. The kickstarter money appears to pay for EVERYTHING, which means all the money made after the release is pure profit. Plus it paid off all her previous debts.

This is the hugest non story in quite a while. People should mind their own business. 

Spock out.

Exploited labor is everybody's bbusiness.

There is nothing exploitational about musicians volunteering to play a gig. If Genesis had asked me to play with them for free I would do it in a heartbeat. Real musicians just play. They also get paid. Not always at the same time. If you have to grouch about this you are one of two things.

1. Not good enough

2. Not a musician

Actually no, I'm not a musician. However, I've heard a lot of musicians who are Really, Really pissed off at this. 

If you "hire" an unpaid intern to do a job that you would otherwise pay someone for, you're breaking the law. I don't think it's against the law in this case, but it's a really shitty thing to do.

If Genesis did that for you, great, but if they did that because they didn't want to pay someone, they'd be major dicks.

Seriously, it's about being a mature adult. You don't screw people over and then claim that you're just doing it for the fans. 

Your statement makes no sense.

I am a musician and I am good enough to be called back for gigs because I can read a chart, take direction, show up on time and perform.

I am offended that Amanda Palmer is asking musician fans to contribute.

Not because fans are willing and able to do it.

If she had said that she needed volunteers to perform (like when a magician asks for a sclemiel to come on stage) or she has an idea for a post modern concept piece involving non-musician volunteers interacting with professional musicians on stage,that would be different.

I am offended because Amanda Palmer has offered no other valid explanation other than she is cheap.

And here's the worst thing: she DID use non-musicians for collaboration. She hired visual artists to contribute to art installations for her tours. And she paid them! On her estimate, 20-25k! She has money to allocate to visual artists but not for auxilliary musicians. That's ridiculous.

This is the whole new reality of Kickstarter. People can see how much money you have raised, and if you have asked them to help fund a project, they may also like to weigh in on how you spend the money.

If some people think you are overpaying for some aspects of the project and underpaying for others, you're likely to hear about.

I'm done reading this bullshit and I hope other decide to stop looking at this web site.  This attitude that an artist asking for volunteers should be vilified and denigrated is crazy.  It's nuts.

This piece has no opinion.

Asking "professional-ish" musicians to audition and practice new material and perform it for free should be, if not vilified, heavily criticized.

Did Amanda Palmers Kickstarter campaign state that the money would be used to pay off past debt?

That doesn't sound like a something a lot of people would have donated money for.

The volunteer musician thing could have been handled a lot better.  I think alot of anger is directed at her simply because of her attitude and approach.

Having some audience participation type entertainment is nothing new and if the free backup band is handled that way it's no big deal.

However, if she is simply asking for musician volunteers to save money for other things, then that is bullshit.

Many kickstarter campaigns are run by people who don't really calculate the costs for all the bonuses that they offer.  If Amanda has fallen into that hole, I have no sympathy.  I'd rather have my money end up in the pockets of a musician than help subsidize one of the bonuses that I did not receive.

Further, if the cost is really $35k for musicians for the tour, then I say pay it.  Musicians are a pivotable part of budgeting for a tour.  You wouldn't ask the truck drivers to drive for free or ask the rental company to provide free trucks (imagine the response there).   You budget for it. 

I also echo the sentiment of Big Swifty.  Nowhere in the proposal did it say that the contributions were going to pay off any pre-existing debt.  If it was album related debt - meaning that she incurred costs for the album prior to the kickstarter campaign - then that's fine.  Otherwise, pay off your debt from the profits of the album/tour.  (OK, so I know some wise guy will say that without free musicians, there may not be profit from the tour... To that I say that if a tour like hers only generates $35k in profit and if paying the musicians means no profit, then no profit it should be.)

BTW, this is far from a non-story.  It speaks to the value of musicians and the willingness to compensate fairly.  Those are very big issues in today's world. 

You really think Amanda Palmer wouldn't ask the drivers to drive for free?

From what she has said, I believe Amanda Palmer has no problem asking anyone to work for free just to keep the star machine running.

Exactly. That's the difference between working for someone and being the boss. If theres a loss, youre the one who takes it.

The reason this is important is because this is not just her big chance but it is, as she reminds everyone, THE FUTURE OF MUSIC. In fact, it's the first big test of KickStarter, which is supposed to be the future of all the arts. So you're damn right it should be scrutinized.

What?

The free market will probably be sufficient scrutiny.

If you donated to Amanda Palmer's "project" and are angry at how the funds were used then you have no one to blame but yourself.

I believe the people who donated to her project think that Amanda Palmer could use the $100 bills to wipe her arse and flush it down the toilet and they wpould be happy.

If years from now Amanda Palmer is a rich and famous musician. Will the musicians who donated their time to help Amanda Palmer feel like they wasted their time?

If years from now nobody even remembers who Amanda Palmer is, will the musicians who donated their time to help Amanda Palmer feel like they wasted their time?

Do the musicians who donated their time on this tour tell their friends who also happen to be professional sidemen that they did this freebie for Amanda Palmer?

Right now and years from now, will the musicians who could have used a paying gig to feed themselves feel good or bad about Amanda Palmer? Does it matter what working musicains think?

She is already famous, and relatively well-off compared to the typical musician out there, don't you think?

Great point here.  If Amanda Palmer wants people to work for free, then she should set up her corporation as a non-profit.  If she did that, then the musicians who donated their time will be able to declare a tax deduction.  

I wonder what the conversation is like on stage between the drummer or soundman who are getting paid and one of the volunteer sidemen.  

Do they continue with the "Isn't it great to be on stage with Amanda Palmer" schtik or do they feel sorry for this pathetic volunteer musician?

Or if Amanda is mixing volunteer musicians with sidemen that are getting paid, what does the paid musician say to the "volunteer"?

I believe that in these terrible economic times for people teens to 30, who are the majority of Amanda's fan base, this thing is going to take it's toll on her popularity.

$35,000

they are 7 people

35/7 = 5000 per musician

A DJ makes 500 for a couple hours of playing. 500 is really low figure, but that's what the mass of djs who are "known but not that famous"  can expect - so i guess we can take that for a start:

5000/500 = 10 dates.

That's not a lot and it is a budget.

Too bad for brass and string section on stage.

I understand why they are not often present.

1 keyboard player with a good synth and samples is way cheaper.

On the linked article, it is said that joy and beer are the recompense.

Now if you divide 5000 by the price of beer, that's a lot of beers (let's say 2500 beers in 10 dates, or 250 beers per night), but may be some medical expenses for the one who drunk that much.... as long as he was still able to play something.... so i guess it is better not to give them anything at all not to turn them into alcoholics.

and if it is "volunteer musicians" who would cost 5000 per head...

What is that ? a mega-tour with free motels, beers, tacos, and laundry ?

motel: average 80/night
food & beverage: average 60/day (and get really fat)

laundry: dude, do you really need to wash that underpant and socks every week ? you said yes ? ok : 1/day (7 a week)

= 141 per day

5000/165 = 35 days on the road.

right ?

(correction:

5000/141 = 35 days on the road).

Do restaurants pay their dishwashers?

Landlords pay their security guards?  

Towns pay their garbagemen?

Do you ask the kid who mows your lawn to do it for free for the exposure?  

What hogwash! 

PAY YOUR MUSICIANS

THE WORKER IS WORTHY OF HIS HIRE.

Apparently Amanda Palmer would have no problem asking fans to mow her lawn for free.

she's saving 35K of 1M - ugly

E poi sono io che ho il braccinocorto...

I never liked the idea of Kickstarter.  It feels wrong to me.

But if Amanda Palmer's fan's and big money donors wanted to support her art, she can do whatever she wants with the money.

That is my issue with Kickstarter.  Folks give money and think they now own the artist.  Nope, you just got your free concert ticket, CD, poster, and t-shirt.  You don't get to tell the artist who to pay or not to pay.

As for me and my band, we shall do things the old way...   pigeon courriers and telegrams.  

Actually, i really think Kickstarter might have some legal issues. We'll see. But she's charging for the concerts, so technically they should get a cut of that money.

Thanks to Amanda Palmer, Kickstarter may now be complicit in fraud. Looking forward to an official statement from them.

What Amanda Palmer wants to do is very-very-very-very illegal in the EU. If she wants to tour here, she should consult her lawyer first. We will not hesitate to take this matter with to local authorities.

Please elaborate. I'm not doubting you, it's just interesting. Certainlly aspects of what she's done seem sketchy under US labor laws on unpaid interns (specifically, the sponsor is not allowed to benefit financially from the intern's work, and playing backup at a show would definitely count).

Someone claimed I was being libellous by calling her a crook, apparently not understanding that a statement of opinion is not libellous.

Amanda's assistant is writing this up right now:

"Looking for fans who are attorneys that know something about libel and free speech.  Help me out on this and you will be paid in high fives, tour merch, and beer."

If opinions online were subject to libel laws (I guess she'd have to sue in England, I hear they're tough there) pretty much every blogger in the world who doesn't write about clouds and flowers would be in the dock right now.

But, yeah, I would love to see her crowdsource a lawyer, but it looks like one of her fans might just be dumb enough to work pro bono ("what? ask Neil for money? That's sexist!")

Actually, the whole thing about "don't hamper my artistic choice" is what I really find hilarious. Maybe Bernie Madoff should have pled the First Amendment!

There is absolutely no legal issue in EU : if people want to be on stage and don't care being paid, it is their absolute freedom.

Please consider this. Palmer's onstage cabaret persona is not an act. She is a contradictory character who relishes the wicked.

Are any of you replying to this thread sexually or sensually adventurous? Because Palmer appears to be a bad ass Dom who makes all submit to her will. In fact she would be called Mistress in many circles. Palmer is the "bitch in charge" and if you don't like it there's the door.

Outside her fiefdom Amanda Palmer replies to blogs, letters,  and is a successful fundraiser. Inside, she rules her pleasure dome of musical pirates and outcasts with a red lipstick smile and firm hand.

Understand you are dealing with a Queen who is building her naughty empire. It's fun to watch and I love to watch. 

Now let's all raise some coin and build the magical domains we envision where players all get paid and special fans get to suck our toes:)

An intern works for college credits instead of cash. As a former media specialist, i've witnessed film production people work for free with the deal being if the movie gets sold you get paid. Guess what?

Pats on the back, ego-feeding, 15-minutes of fame, and getting to hang out with all the latest real cool people doesn't put gas in the van.

How do you spell: CON ARTIST?

She has no problem paying other people, but she knows she can exploit musicians. Of COURSE the musicians getting the opportunity are happy - it doesn't change the fact that they are working for free and SHOULD be paid. Just because something is a big opportunity does not mean that payment should not be involved. I'm tired of this BS. This is the 1% mentallity, where there is no morality - no respect - involved, just a profit motive and justification. "If you CAN exploit someone, do so." That's the rule of corporate pigs and shouldn't be the rule of a musician who knows how hard it is to get by on free opportunities.

Amanda Palmer, shame on you!

The federal government needs to enforce some kind of legal policy that states that all musicians who have been selected to play at any ‘live music’ venue should be compensated (at the very least) a union enforced performance fee.

 I am sick and tired of seeing independent (alas unsigned) artists playing for audience tips for which never account for more than a few measly bucks (and that’s if the audiences are feeling generous). It is totally uninspiring and it makes for mediocre performances. If money was on the line musicians would be obliged to give it 100% and be motivated to write more compelling music and maybe even pay for some groceries in the process. You cannot expect an aspiring professional musician to give their ‘all’ without being paid like a professional, while getting business experience transacting with for profit driven venue owners and bookers. Albeit, a few hundred bucks at least.

Time and time again, I see the alcohol take (turnover) at these venues skyrocket into the thousands of dollars every night. This occurs because of the reputation of the venue and the vibe live music creates, even if it is background ambience after all.

I believe there should also be laws that stipulate that ALL TV’s featuring sports games should be switched off during a musical performance. It’s utterly disrespectful. If punters want that they should go to the for-profit, alcohol soaked bars in any given city that provide that experience. There are plenty of them.

Do you know of any organizations or legal associations that I can join to try my very best to make changes in this area? Ambitious I know, but hey somebody has to make changes and take a stand here especially when it comes to cases like Amanda Palmer!

Thoughts?

It's so easy to cook the books in your favor....it's what tax cheats do all the time....you can take the position in your favor without admitting guilt....along with that ...you can then thank all the musicians for their amazing performance while they go home hungry and you go home to your rockstar world of Champaign wishes and caviar dreams or is it cocaine wishes and prescription drug dreams........