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I’m Charlotte Church. And This Is How Women Are Routinely Demoralized by the Music Industry…

The following speech was delivered at BBC 6 Music’s annual John Peel Lecture by Charlotte Church, who entered the music industry as a young teenager.  Roughly 15 years later, her perspectives on the business have changed dramatically.

charlottechurchface

 

“Thank you for coming to my lecture this evening.

I’d like you to imagine a world in which male musicians are routinely expected to act as submissive sex objects.  Picture Beyonce’s husband Jay-Z stripped down to a T-back bikini thong, sex kittin’ his way through a boulevard of suited-and-booted women for their pleasure.  Or Britney Spears’ ex, Justin Timberlake, in buttocks-clenching hot pants writhing on top of a pink Chevy, explaining to an audience how he’d like to be their ‘Teenage Dream’.

Before we all get a little too hot beneath the gusset, of course these scenarios are not likely to become reality, unless for comedy’s sake.  The reason for this is that these are roles the music industry has carved out specifically for women.

 

It is a male-dominated industry, with a juvenile perspective on gender and sexuality.

 

From what I can see, there are three main roles that women are allowed to fill in modern pop music. Each of them restrictive for both artists and audience. They are mainly portrayed through the medium of the music video, you’ll find them very familiar.  I call them One of the Girls’ Girls, the Victim/Torch Singer, and the Unattainable Sexbot.

 

The One of the Girls’ Girls role is a painfully thin reduction of feminism that generally seems to point to a world where, ‘so long as you can hang out with your girls it’s possible to sort of wave away the evils that men do.’  This denigrates women and men equally, and yet is commonly lauded for being empowering.

The Victim/Torch Singer can be divided into the sexy victim (ie, Natalie Imbruglia in the ‘Torn’ video) and the not-so-sexy victim.  One female artist who does not use her sexuality to sell records is Adele.  However, lyrically, her songs are almost without exception written from the perspective of the wronged woman, an archetype as old as time.  Someone who has been let down by the men around her, and is subsequently in a perpetual state of despair.

But to me, the Unattainable Sexbot is most commonly employed and most damaging, a role that is also claimed to be an empowering one.  The irony behind this is that the women filling these roles are often very young, often previous child stars or Disney tweens, who are simply trying to get along in an industry glamorized to be the most desirable career for young women.  They are encouraged to present themselves as hyper-sexualized, unrealistic, cartoonish, as objects, reducing female sexuality to a prize you can win.

 

When I was 19 or 20, I found myself in this position, being pressured into wearing more and more revealing outfits.  And the lines I had spit at me again and again, generally by middle-aged men, were “you look great, you’ve got a great body, why not show it off?”

Or, “don’t worry, it’ll look classy, it’ll look artistic” [audience laughter]

I felt deeply uncomfortable about the whole thing, but I was often reminded by record label executives just whose money was being spent.

 

Whilst I can’t defer all blame away from myself, I was barely out of my teenage years, and the consequence of this portrayal of me is that now I am frequently abused on social media, being called slut, whore, and a catalog of other indignities that I am sure you’re are also sadly very familiar with.

 

Now, I find it difficult to promote my music where I feel it would be best suited, because of my history.  The culture of demeaning women in pop music is so ingrained as to become routine, from the way we are dealt with by management and labels, to the way we are presented the public.

You could trace this back to Madonna, although it probably does go back further in time.

 

[Madonna] was a template-setter, by changing her image regularly, putting her sexuality in the heart of her image, videos, and live performance, the statement she was making was, “I’m in control of me and my sexuality.”

 

This idea has had its corners rounded off over the years, and has become, “take your clothes off, show you’re an adult.”  Rihanna’s recent video for “Pour It Up” may have over 40 million hits on YouTube, but you only have to look at the online response to see that it is only a matter of time before the public turns on an artist for pushing it too far.

 

But the single, like all of Rihanna’s other provocative hits, will make her male writers and producers and record label guys a ton of money.

 

It is a multi-billion dollar business that relies upon short-burst messaging to sell product.   And there’s no easier way to sell something than to get some chick to get her tits out, right?

[audience laughter]

Well, when the male perspective is the dominant one, the end point is women being coerced into sexually demonstrative behavior in order to hold onto their careers.  This idea, repeated over generations, can’t but have a negative effect on women, whether they are in the industry or not.

I needn’t point out that these roles are interchangeable for artists, and they are not prescriptive to all female musicians.  For every chart-topping star that fits neatly into one or other of these archetypes, there are twenty other artists that may not have the same earning potential, but carved out their own roles as human beings, not objects.  One is only to look at Julia Holter, HAIM or Poliça to see strong women, unrestricted in their art by their gender or sexuality.

Throughout the industry, wherever you find woman they are doing brilliant things.  Trina Shoemaker is a three-time Grammy Award-winning engineer.  Mandy Parnell is a mastering engineer who has worked on some of the best-received albums of the last twenty years.  And Marin Alsop this summer became the first-ever female conductor at the Last Night at the Proms.  She recently said,

There is no logical reason to stop women from conducting.  The baton isn’t heavy, it weighs about an ounce.  No superhuman strength is required; good musicianship is all that counts.

As a society, we have a lack of comfort in seeing women in these ultimate, authority roles.  Out of 295 acts and artists in the Rock n’ Roll Hall of Fame, 259 are entirely male, meaning that Tina Weymouth’s part in Talking Heads makes them one of the 36 female acts.  The Association of Independent Music’s 2012 membership survey revealed that only 15 percent of label members are majority-owned by women. PRS claims that only 13 percent of writers registered are female.

The Music Producers Guild less than 4 percent.

Last year, I worked with an exceptionally talented female sound engineer.  And last week, I launched a publishing company that unintentionally has an all-female staff – honest, unintentional [laughs].  But I am constantly disappointed to find out how few women there are working in certain areas of the music industry.

So, is it simply all down to sexism?  Myths about women perpetuated by men?  Nicki Minaj seems to think so.  In what has now become known as her ‘Pickle Juice Rant,’ she talks about she is derided for demanding a certain level of professionalism with the people she works with.  She says,

“When I’m assertive, I’m a bitch.  When a man is assertive, he’s a boss.”

 

Minaj is one of the many top-flight female artists who use alter-egos in their work.  Her other personalities are often men, who rap violently about women.

 

So, to what extent are these myths about women, perpetuated by women themselves?  In a very recent, very public spat between the legendary Sinead O’Connor and the infamous Miley Cyrus, mother O’Connor wrote a concerned, open letter directed at Ms. Cyrus, who herself responded by ridiculing O’Connor’s bipolar disorder on Twitter.   If women are to become free agents of their gender’s destiny in music, in a music world which is reliant upon shouting loudest over the clamor, it stands to reason that online pissing contests only serve to detract from the strong messages being put forward by such artists like Janelle Monae and Erykah Badu.  Their recent collaboration on “Q.U.E.E.N.” is an eloquent and impassioned rallying cry for what Monae identifies as “everyone who’s felt ostracized and marginalized.”   And yet it is women that she addresses most specifically in the track, ending with the line,

“Electric ladies, will you sleep, or will you preach?”

The recent flapping about Miley Cyrus’ blah, blah, blah has clearly struck a chord with the likes of O’Connor, and opened up a worldwide debate on the use of female sexuality to sell product.

Annie Lenox cut to the jugular when she talked about the age-propriety of what she calls ‘dark’ and ‘pornographic music videos’.   She has called for videos to be rated by a film czar, with X-ratings to be applied to the most sexually explicit.  It is interesting to note, that anyone of any age has been able to watch Christina Aguilera’s simulated masturbation in her ‘Dirty’ video on YouTube since the website began.  And yet you must sign in to the site to prove your age if you wanted to watch Bjork’s stunning video for ‘Pagan Poetry’.

Whilst I would argue that neither videos are acceptable viewing for young eyes, I know which one I would rather have to explain to my child.  Whilst channels like YouTube and Vimeo have a responsibility in dealing with these issues, radio stations should not think that they are beyond criticism.  As Tony Hall, the BBC’s Director General, announces the new iPlayer channel for Radio 1, the question must be asked:

 

Should programmers take into consideration the image of an artist when deciding whether to play and promote their music?

 

There are countless examples from the last few years of songs that have been in high rotation that have little-to-no artistic worth but are just plain rude.  I’ve been asked to give some examples, but I don’t want to give the Daily Mail an excuse to ignore the rest of this lecture.

[audience laughter; audience member yells, ‘heyyy’]

BBC Radio is notorious for misreading sexual metaphor and innuendo as innocent, most famously with Lou Reed’s ‘Walk on the Wild Side.’  But more recently, there doesn’t seem to be a decency barrier at all, unless you’re dealing with works like “fuck” or “shit” or “hippopotamus cock.”

[audience laughter and snickering]

If there are no sanctions put upon music that is written so zealously about genitalia, or uses soft porn in its promotion online, what is to stop artists from feeling that they have to make their videos and their live performances more sexy [to] drive up their online views, and subsequently encourage more radio play?

And so to “Blurred Lines,” which many in this room have no doubt added to their playlists.  The “Blurred Lines” video, which had the biggest part in jettisoning a song by a mediocre artist into the biggest track of the year, was on YouTube for just under a week before it was taken down, and remains on Vimeo without any age restrictions.  The indefensible Robin Thicke, stated in an interview with GQ, that his intention was to do everything that is completely derogatory towards women because he respects them so much.

He continued saying,

People say, ‘hey, do you think this is degrading to women?  I’m like, ‘of course, what a pleasure it is to degrade a woman!’

 

It is highly disappointing to know that the director of this video is a woman, Diane Martell, who also captured Miley Cyrus’ twerking for the first time in the video for “We Can’t Stop,” and is responsible for an objectionable little number by Leah LaBelle called of all things “Lolita.”

 

What is possibly more disappointing than this is the presence of the exceptionally talented Pharrell Williams at 2013’s Roundtable of Chauvinism.  In a recent interview with Rolling Stone, Cyrus quoted a message to her from Williams, who said of her VMAs blah blah blah,

The VMAs was nothing more than God or the universe showing you how powerful anything you do is.  It’s like uranium, it has the power to take over lives or power entire countries.  Now that you have seen your power, master it.  You are not a train wreck, you are the train pulling everyone else along.

With this kind of encouragement, it is no surprise whatsoever that young women feel it necessary to be more and more shocking in their bid to the most… forward looking?  Canadian electronic artist Grimes, whose third record Visions was met with universal acclaim, says

I don’t want to be infantilized because I refuse to be sexualized.  To my mind, what this industry seems to want from of its women increasingly are sex objects that appear childlike.  Look at the teddy bears everywhere, the Britney Spears Rolling Stone cover with Telletubbies from 1999.

 

I state again: Lolita?

 

jenniferbritain

 

The terrifying thing is that the target demographic for this type of music is getting younger and younger.  Jennifer Lopez seemingly trying to engulf the camera with her vagina on Britain’s Got Talent earlier this year…

[audience laugher]

…is a mild example of how frequently carnal images creep into the realm of what is deemed okay for kids.

But ultimately, it does not need to be like this.  Sex can be art: look at Bjork’s “Vespertine,” a highly-sexual and sensual record by a woman entirely in control of her career and of sex.  The same can be said for almost every Prince record, and should be.  Both are artists, adults, and human beings intelligently addressing a human subject, not exclusively a male one.

I support Annie Lennox’s plea for ratings on videos.  If Rihanna had not grown up watching the videos of the 90s, then it might not be quite so essential for her to portray her sexuality so luridly, so constantly, and so influentially upon the next generation.  If the power was taken away from sex in pop by making it harder for younger viewers to access it, then maybe the focus would shift to making works of artistic beauty and conscience.

And fundamentally, that would actually be putting the power back in sex, for a future world where humans are able to portray their sexuality as it is for them.

Thank you.”

[Long audience applause]

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Comments (340)
  1. Tired of the Feminist Rants

    why dont we all just live in a PG13 world….or better yet maybe every female artist should be a G rated star with songs suitable for toddlers at daycare. we should market everything to them…adding baby blankets and binkys to every deluxe edition of new albums. Charlotte Church…and other feminist I get that you have a point of view and rightfully so…however, have you for just a moment thought that some of these women want to be marketed as sex pots such as Rihanna?? Miley Cyrus managed herself for awhile and made the decisions to do what shes been doing herself….90’s videos? REALLY? Ha! how laughable…


    Reply
    1. Yves Villeneuve

      I agree. I think videos in the 90’s were much more sexual driven than they are now, and also most women would rather be marketed as sexbots than not marketed at all. Charlote church is obviously just looking for attention.


      Reply
      1. Yves Villeneuve

        Somebody is angry and is posting under my name. Whoever it is, one word, “childish”.

        To be honest, I never watched videos in the 90’s and occasionally watch them now. I was most recently impressed with Britney Spears’ Work Bitch Video for two reasons: the song and the video were both hot.


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        1. pjh

          missing the point, women shouldn’t have to use their sexuality to promote their music! look at the proportion of barely clothed women in pop videos compared to men!


          Reply
          1. flowerjay

            Why are we comparing men to women? I would think two facts are obvious – 1. the female body has more marketing potential (e.g. entertainment history in the United States and most western cultures) and 2. Women aren’t men and men aren’t women.

            Seriously, this whole topic goes under the “vote ourselves more bread and circuses” category – We can’t define what composes “art” and we can’t tell people what to use their money on. If people spend their money on sexualized female recording artists then there will be more sexualized female recording artists. And no amount of shaming is going to change that.

            I would like to see a solution to all of this (besides Church’s censorship idea – censorship, no matter what guise it takes, never works). People like to complain about this phenomenon but you never see a solution – the reason, is because there is no solution for what appeals to a populace!!!

            Either don’t participate or do participate but quit complaining about the wind!!!


            Reply
            1. Chelsea

              The solution is to change the mindset of people so that all people are seen evenly. Women are systematically harassed in the workplace, no matter the occupation.

              Censorship and coercion aren’t the answer.

              People caring enough about other people to respect them is the answer. Breaking down gender stigmatization is the answer. Understanding that women are humans with just as much intellect and self worth as men is the answer.


              Reply
      2. DrM

        What a fool you are and how completely ridiculous you sound. Most women (like me, like my peers) would rather NOT be marketed at all thanks. I’ll take my PhD and my intellect as my strength and my value thanks. I decide where to direct my sexuality and when and how to do it. And I’ll choose to keep it under wraps when I want. It is not a commodity for sales. If you don’t like feminist rants Yves then don’t read or listen to them. We won’t mind. Your opinion doesn’t matter…OURS does.


        Reply
        1. Henrix

          Those are your hormones speaking


          Reply
          1. Carol

            To the person who stated ‘those are your hormones speaking’, there’s a word for people like you but unfortunately I can’t write it here, but it’s those sorts of attitudes that denigrate women more than anything. ‘Ignorant sexist pig’ really doesn’t cover it but it’ll have to do.


            Reply
            1. Vincent

              The word you’re looking for is ‘troll’. Educate yourself.


              Reply
              1. Sophie

                pretty sure its ignorant sexist pig, thank you.


                Reply
                1. Phrank

                  You’re right, there is a word to describe that kind of attitude – it’s misogynist. Strangely, women like Rihanna are themselves misogynistic in a bizarrely masochistic way.


                  Reply
                  1. Liz

                    Yeah, when women are sexist towards women, it’s called internalized misogyny. Women are part of the system, too, and we’re not exempt from perpetuating its more damaging aspects.


                    Reply
              2. LaylaReinaRosa

                Yes, I agree, ignorant arrogant perverted sexist pig with hand in his pants. I’m so so glad that some men know how to think outside of their pants and away from their penis


                Reply
                1. Zapperz

                  For more information on troll culture, please see encyclopedia dramatica. Now go make me a sammich!


                  Reply
                  1. Zappa

                    Okay dumb cunt.


                    Reply
                    1. Fayke

                      “DUMB CUNT” is the dumbest insult I’ve heard so far jajajajajajajajaja


                    2. Fayke

                      …I hope you’re not related to Frank…


          2. godiva de maus

            No, I’m sorry… it’s your hormones that are impacting your hearing. The point Ms. Church goes out of her way to state is that a woman that chooses to market herself in this way is an entirely different thing from young, child stars being molded to BE this way to make money off of them. She also goes on to make the point that in other jobs in the industry that do not require one to be the performer or on stage, women are grossly under represented, from producers, to stage managers to sound technicians, she’s observing that these three archetypes for female performers do tend to hem in the female artists. She even went on to comment to a question regarding Rhianna (who is a very big star in the industry) and whether she could now, that she has the clout of stardom, could she now say, I don’t want to choose this model for my career. Ms. Church comments that she doesn’t think that Rhianna could do that… because now that’s she’s been marketed that way… that’s what the audience and the industry execs expect.

            Your pointing to a a woman’s comment that she wouldn’t be interested in “marketing” herself preferring her PhD instead. You passed her off as being hormonal. It’s patently offensive. Granted, I would argue that it doesn’t matter what industry you are in, if you’re a man OR a woman, or how many degrees you have, the reality is that everyone must market themselves… so I found her comment seemed to be a bit naive in terms of that reality. But, her basic point is sound, which is if you go into an industry that requires you to be forever youthful, forever physically at your peak (from models, to football players, ballerinas, skaters, skiers, actresses) it’s rather an unrealistic expectation and it’s not a great recipe for long term fulfillment and success (although there are certainly plenty of outliers we can point to who defy this meme).


            Reply
          3. This is sad

            Haha hormones talking. Say that to your daughter when you catch videos of her on Facebook or Instagram, twerking because she sees her favourite artists doing it. Or feeling like less of a female or like she can’t move forward in her career of choice because she doesn’t want to degrade herself. I completely agree with Charlotte. The way women are sexualised in general is disgusting. At the end of the day if a man and a woman went for the same job as a musician, both with great talent, guaranteed at some point she will be asked to get naked smh. This is the reason why artists like Jay Z, and not so good looking man with a not so good looking body can rise to the top of the charts without so much as taking off his suit jacket whilst his wife, Beyonce has to climb on her knees in a glittery thong (despite her endless talent) to get to where he is. It’s a shame!


            Reply
            1. Denise

              Great article.

              I feel that the mainstream media is merely a form of control, and as such, I refuse to be subjected to this type of abusive imagery (the soft porn depicted in the degrading music videos that is). It is a violence of sorts and it saddens me deeply that when the world is in a state of chaos and perpetual war, all the music industry seems to pump out is x-rated videos of half naked or totally naked airbrushed women (and men) objectifying themselves to sell a record. It says a lot about our species in general, not just the music industry.

              True sexuality does not come from such a dark sad place. Sexual energy is a direct expression of the divine, and should always honor both parties. We should in fact never walk away from an experience feeling dirty or abused, and watching today’s music videos (mainstream music that is) one cannot help but feel cheapened somehow.

              I feel we need to honor the divine feminine in art, by creating imagery that heals, not by making it some ‘thing’ to sell and market. I no longer watch music videos made by mainstream artists for this very reason, I do not want my energetic field to be contaminated. So I choose differently..and if you truly don’t like the images you are subjected to, don’t invest your precious time or even your money into paying for these artists to continue the degradation of the human species.

              And please, if you are going to respond to this comment, do so with respect, for this is truly the only way to assist one another on our journey’s here on this troubled yet beautiful planet.
              Much love.


              Reply
              1. ria

                I concur. There is too much that is demeaning in current music videos- I am often offended at the sexualized and/or vviolence portrayed by women. We need to be much more respectful towards each other and ourselves.


                Reply
          4. Kelly Moore

            Actually, sweetie, I believe it’s been established that men are awash on a daily basis in a sea of hormones that women only equal on their worst days. Which accounts for the fact that 95% of all violent crime is committed by men. I feel sorry for the guys, having PMS 24/7.


            Reply
            1. Samson

              Oh man, that was good, though. Nice one. Especially true of the prick up above with his comments about “hormones.” We’ve got enough of those guys in the world, but I promise it’s not all of us.


              Reply
            2. Kevin V Russell

              Of course you are right. Why don’t we gear more about this orbis it just accepted because its normal?


              Reply
        2. Muriel murmel

          If your intellect and degree are superior enough to sexualism that you can hold it all self evident like you do…. Well pore it. You got a whole planet and about ten thousand other species to convince.


          Reply
        3. Anonymous

          I totally agree with you DrM. The men are running the music business are pigs and that is what makes me tired.


          Reply
        4. Tyler Durden

          “Your opinion doesn’t matter…OURS does.” Such a typical feminist close-minded thing to say.


          Reply
          1. Colin

            Wow, a lot of very threatened feeling men in this thread, scared if they had to be equals to women. It says a lot that they read an article that women should be treated with more respect and out come the pack-of-dogs mentality of small-minded and even smaller-dicked men getting all hurt that their thin veil of control could be challenged. Of course, what these scared little boys commenting on here don’t realize, what they say says more about them than it does about the subject matter, it says they’ve got control issues and are sad they’ll never attain manhood.


            Reply
            1. Sheila

              Thanks, Colin. Until your comment, I was feeling sick to my stomach at all the fifth-grade testosterone.


              Reply
            2. Andre

              Oh Colin … you’re so sensitive . Sigh …


              Reply
              1. Beetbox

                Sensitivity takes a lot of courage.


                Reply
              2. Alicia

                Oh Andre, you are such a dipshit. Crawl back under the bridge with your goat, troll.


                Reply
            3. z

              Colin FTW! I’m embarassed at how my gender is presenting itself in this thread. Tiny brained, ignorant, threatened, scared little boys.


              Reply
            4. Danielle

              “Your opinion doesn’t matter…OURS does.” IS a typical feminist close-minded thing to say. Opinions matter, all opinions – even opinions you think are stupid. But feminism of today is usually more about female supremacy than equality; as if it were some sort of twisted revenge plot for the wrongs of ages past.

              Most feminists are therefore sexist little piggies as well, which I suppose the typically feminist close-minded saying “my opinion matters, yours doesn’t” adequately expresses.

              Furthermore… To speculate about someones genital proportions based on their close-mindedness seems totally fucking retarded, but maybe you’re just “that kind of guy”, Colin. You know. Special. It basically turns a solid argument into a personal attack. Petty, petty…

              Carry on…


              Reply
              1. godiva de maus

                I’m sorry Danielle, but you don’t sound like you have much of a clue about what feminism “was” back in the day versus what it is today and it’s really sad because regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, you have a vested interest in feminism, whether you acknowledge it or not.

                When 51% of the population is singled out for lesser treatment in terms of say, pay equity, then everyone, including men are impacted by that. If you are living with a woman, and she’s earning 77 cents for every dollar a man makes… that means she’s bringing home 23 percent less than she would if there is pay parity. For a household, that difference is huge. For children who are being raised by a woman or a couple that includes at least one woman, that difference is huge. For the woman who contributes toward retirement or receives a pension, that lesser figure impacts her retirement income (though she will statistically live longer). This often means that it impacts social services and thus impacts taxes and I’ve only touched on the economic considerations.

                What Ms. Church was addressing is structural misogyny. It not only impacts how men view women (and how they interact with them on an a micro level) but it impacts how a culture views women on a macro level.

                I have a daughter who is actually a recording and touring musician. I’ve been extremely proud of how she conducts her career considerations (that and her male partner and producer), but don’t kid yourself… she and her partner’s approach to their music is the exception rather than the rule.

                Ms. Church hints that some of these observations are more the symptoms and not absolute proof of misogyny. She mentions that the music industry (like many industries that involve media–say the news, for instance) has been going through a very difficult time frame and the pressure to create content that drives “clicks” drives the bar further and further down the path of salaciousness. She doesn’t place this in the frame of anti-woman, but openly acknowledges the pressures that the industry is undergoing.

                But just because she acknowledges not all of it is due to a need to exploit women, doesn’t mean she has to accept that none of it is exploitative. It’s not a zero sum equation. So, Danielle, I’d encourage you to actually take some courses in Women’s studies and educate yourself just a tad on what feminism really means (by the way, there are men who are feminists too).


                Reply
              2. David

                No: not all opinions matter. Opinions that have been carefully thought through and provide some kind of insight and value to the receiver: they matter. For example – the foregoing article speaks from the position of a knowledgeable insider who’s thought carefully about her experiences. Therefore it matters. Many of the commenters on the other hand, seem to have vomited up half regurgitated floaters they’ve slurped from some of the grimier corners of the “anti feminist” internet, without doing us the common courtesy of passing these nuggets though their cerebral cortex on the way. It’s like comparing the works of William Blake to the average Daily Mail article. They really, really do not matter.


                Reply
            5. Xib

              Men are scared of equal rights. Men are frightened by masculinized females.


              Reply
            6. Kimberly

              Colin, you called it right and I agree.


              Reply
          2. Jessa

            Thank you!


            Reply
        5. Silvasands

          Well said. An educated hippy, I really do despair for the mentality and sexuality portrayed in some of the music videos.Teaching at a secure unit, I was dismayed to see a music video ,which left very little to one`s imagination, being watched by some of the kids residing on the unit.Their ideas of womanhood are being perverted by in your face images of women thrusting and thrashing about. Trying to teach them about parenting, breast feeding and feelings…is becoming extremely difficult in the face of what is purportedly classed as music videos but are actually low grade porno pics with music added almost as an after thought. Believe me, we are creating major problems for the future and Charlotte Church has some VERY valid points, the problem is, however, there are some which won`t /can`t agree with her , being already victims of this new disease of sorts.


          Reply
          1. Caterina Maria

            I assure you my disinterest in parenting and breast feeding has nothing to do with breasts being sexualised.

            I feel less of a victim the more I throw out the dogma I learned from either extreme.


            Reply
        6. HAHA

          You must be ugly.


          Reply
          1. Hippo

            Ad-hominem. You can’t contribute anything valid to the debate so you attack someone who happens to disagree with you. Very juvenile, leave the debate.


            Reply
        7. Chuck D

          Well see there you go that’s why no one cares what you think. You aren’t buying records so they aren’t selling them to you. it’s called being the minority.


          Reply
        8. Miley'sExerciseBike(Iwish)

          So his opinion doesn’t matter but yours do? Gratifying to read exactly the problem people have with zealots like yourself. You’re so self obsessed you believe that your way is the only right way and to hell with everything and everyone else. Well, look at what happened to Sinead O’Connor. She tried to tell Miley Cyrus she was being exploited because, probably truthfully, she felt SHE had been exploited years ago by the industry. Miley (not very politely or articulately to be fair) told her it was THE MUSIC INDUSTRY that SHE was exploiting for personal gain and to mind her own damn business.

          A point a lot of militant feminist idiots would do well to bear in mind.

          Moreover, the fact that “most women don’t want to market themselves at all” is irrelevant as most women aren’t RELYING on a market for their product to earn a living. Miley Cyrus, Britney, Rihanna et al ARE relying on that marketability and look at where it has gotten them? Does your self righteous PhD (I’m assuming that was your major) have you an 8-figure salary or home in the Hollywood hills? Probably not. But their smoking hit bodies and deliberately promiscuous lyrics do. So perhaps they’re smarter than you AND not afraid to use it!

          Toodle pip


          Reply
        9. The Avg Dude

          Guys know why DrM’s panties are in a wad over Yves’s post. She’s a butt ugly dog that directs her jealousy of hot women into her feminist rants. There’s a reason women like her and her buddy Carol keep their sexuality under wraps. It’s because that’s where it belongs. No self respecting guy wants to see it. On the other hand, hot women like Miley Cyrus and Rihanna are showing off theirs because they got it going on. And don’t even get me started on Robin Thicke’s video. The women in that masterpiece were drop dead gorgeous. More artists should make videos like his!

          There’s a reason DrM has a PhD and Miley Cyrus is strutting around on stage half naked. No one wants to see the former and everyone is clamoring for the latter. Finally, I don’t see Miley knocking anyone’s education so you skanky looking feminists shouldn’t be knocking her hot bod.

          Nuff said…


          Reply
          1. hotginger

            Miley Cyrus’ body is not hot. She looks like she is still 12. Learning to stick her ass in your face for money doesn’t make her any more sexy than you sitting on your computer masturbating to her videos makes you a hot lover. Stay average, Dude…the music industry execs are counting on it. Thank$ for your $upport.


            Reply
            1. Kimberly

              You’re right hotginger, avg dude is EXACTLY the demographic these record execs pander to. “Men” who can only “think” with ONE part of their anatomy. Sad….


              Reply
        10. Boonie

          Amen DRM…..just amen.


          Reply
        11. Male professional musician and teacher

          Dr. M, You hit the nail on the head!!! The problem is that neither the untalented artists (it’s all studio tricks) nor the writers and producers care so long as it sells (not to me mind you)


          Reply
      3. Matt Anthony

        Your comments are doing nothing but making you look backward, ignorant and sadly misinformed. Women don’t want to market themselves as sexbots, nervous women in a big industry want to make money and get recognised, and that is the only way they are allowed to do it. How do I get noticed? Be more outrageous and desirable than the last artist.
        Ask any girl, this doesn’t just apply to the music business, for example, why do you get dressed up and made up before a night out? It’s not to get lovely compliments off their grandmother. it’s to look good, desirable. To who? Men. Charlotte Church isn’t looking for attention. She’d get plenty of that by stripping down to a thong and heels and dancing on MTV like the other poor girls who are told by their management that this is what they must do. YOU are what is wrong with male views of women. YOU, my friend, are why this issue exists in the first place, and it is because of narrow-minded people like you that women like Charlotte Church have to be brave and stand up against the testosterone-driven society we inhabit.


        Reply
        1. Matt Anthony

          Directed at Yves.


          Reply
      4. Dana

        Yves, as a MAN, I think you need to stick to speaking for your own gender. Better yet, speak only for yourself because there are men out there who are all grown up and therefore don’t think like you do.


        Reply
      5. Velouria

        sigh… a young lady talks about sexism in the media and is “looking for attention” – this not only makes zero sense but it sounds like it was written by someone who honestly has no idea what words mean.


        Reply
    2. SmallOnion

      Why, because a woman is speaking about (very intelligently and succinctly I might add) sexualising and objectifying woman, is she a feminist? I don’t see this speech as a rant. A rant implies that she’s banging on and on and on, irrationally, when she’s not.


      Reply
      1. Jan

        Agree – Charlotte Church was just too young (and what were her parents thinking/doing? I wouldn’t have wanted her life for my daughters. I admire and think she is a million miles ahead of Rihanna, Miley, and the like – they are cheap and tawdry


        Reply
        1. Sandy

          Cheap and tawdry are kind terms, Jan.


          Reply
      2. Athena

        Pretty sure that is the definition of a feminist. Feminists want women to be treated as human beings of equal worth and capabilities as men – people equally worthy of respect. In this sense Church’s speech against the sexualisation and objectification of women is DEFINITELY feminist. And that’s wonderful.

        I don’t know where you got the idea that feminism = irrational rants. Unless it’s from a media that wants to silence the feminist movement to maintain the patriarchal status quo that relies on the objectification of women – by promoting the idea that feminists are misandrists (which we are NOT) and that we are “over-emotional” and “irrational” and “need to lighten up” and “are all lesbians anyway” (not that being a lesbian should make one less worthy of being taken seriously).

        Educate yourself please before you help perpetuate such a slander.


        Reply
        1. Molly

          Completely agree. Feminism is about equality and should be as positive a word as any other word that promotes equality for all people.


          Reply
        2. enness

          Some of them are, in my estimation, misandrists. IIt doesn’t look like Church is one. It’s also clear from the speech that she hasn’t veered into puritanism.


          Reply
        3. Stacey

          Very well said.


          Reply
          1. Beetbox

            Misandrysts are not feminists, they are Misandrysts.


            Reply
        4. Pam Jarrett

          Misandrists is not a word. Try misanthropes.


          Reply
        5. Anna Elizabeth L.

          Don’t forget “ugly”. (They’re Promoting that) feminists are “ugly”.


          Reply
        6. Jessa

          I feel as though the second wave of feminism isn’t so much about being equal anymore. It’s more like, “Hey we can do what you do, we can do it better, AND we’re different than you.” WE are WOMEN, we are inherently BETTER than you because we create life, take that. If you want to be so equal, don’t include gender in the movement. I thank the women of the 20s, 50s, and 70s and so on. Some of these “faddy feminists”, well, I would kindly tell them to stop. Don’t be a man hater, you know?


          Reply
          1. Lola

            We are now in the third wave of feminism. The fact you are unaware of that means you have no understanding. As said previously feminist are not men haters nor are they people (men and women! Quelle horreur!) who think women are superior to men. They are simply humans who feel that gender is irrelevant in terms of treatment of humans by society. Learn more before you get an opinion.


            Reply
      3. Medusa

        Um…. everything about this is indicative of her being a feminist.


        Reply
    3. Adul Al-Jabbar bin Mohamad

      I like how you think.


      Reply
    4. enness

      Sorry, no. I don’t buy that any man or woman in his or her right mind wants to be used like something sub-human. Our deepest heart’s desire is to be loved, truly loved. It takes near-constant cultural brainwashing to obscure that reality, but that’s precisely the situation we have.


      Reply
    5. Tired of Men being Tired of "Feminist Rants"

      And we’re tired of being turned into sexual objects for your viewing pleasure, so sit down son.


      Reply
      1. buffie9

        Hoorah!


        Reply
      2. margo

        thank you.


        Reply
    6. Rene M.

      Miley Cyrus is managing herself? ROTFLMAO No one at that level in any part of the entertainment industry is managing themselves. There are plenty of people who are counting on her pipeline of money…too many of them are yes men and too many keep their mouths shut. I do agree that ultimately it is she who makes the final call as to what she wears and doesn’t wear on stage.


      Reply
    7. :)

      Everyone just stop the feminist bashing . If you dropped your ego and fake desires and listened and educated yourself about what we’re trying to say then maybe the world wouldn’t be so screwed up. Male criticism and dismissal of feminism is just proof of patriarchy.. Feminism has done so much for women and it will continue to do so whether you like it or not . You can’t shut us up, the truth will prevail.


      Reply
    8. Equality lover.

      Tired of the feminist rants – if women were equal you wouldn’t have these ‘rants’ – yours is a bit of a rant too – same old same old. Have you heard of self-objectification? Look it up, and also consider whether the pressure put on artists makes them think that they want to put their private world on view. You may be right about one or two artists but that isn’t an argument.


      Reply
    9. Jack Point

      You completely misunderstood the entire article. it wasn’t the absolute best article ever written, and I hate that I agree with her on pretty much all points, but she’s right anyway.

      You can disagree with her, but your post is addressed in her article. If you read it (which I doubt you did at this point) then you will note she addressed the idea that women “want” to be sexualized. She notes in the article that the issue is that it is pretty much a given that they will be, and thus they are divested of that choice. Clearly. Succinctly. In fact, the whole goddam article addresses your post (before you posted it). Did you open your eyes past the title?

      And here’s the most important thing that you (and those who are extremely bitter about this) are missing; if you are responding to this with anger and indignation, you are hurting BOTH the male AND female cause. You are perpetuating not only a general stereotype about women, but about men as well. If you have any self-respect, you will control that anger and realize what impact your words are having.


      Reply
      1. Matt Greenberg

        Right on!


        Reply
    10. Amanda

      The thing is, not all of these women WANT to be sexbots. As Charlotte church said, they are often pressured by their label into acting/dressing in a particular way. If a person wants to be a sexbot, then let them. Just don’t make it an industry standard.


      Reply
    11. Gin

      “have you for just a moment thought that some of these women want to be marketed as sex pots such as Rihanna??”
      ****
      No, they don’t. Just because they’re getting paid to do it doesn’t mean they want to do it. Have you ever WANTED to work at a fast foo restaurant? Have you ever worked in a fast food restaurant? Even though you’re getting paid, that doesn’t mean you want to be doing that job. Same argument. Women don’t want to be objectified in order to sell their music. There’s way too many talented women in the music industry. I honestly wish some of them would stop being so damn provocative and just sing. I know men won’t buy their albums, but here’s a news flash for you. Women would buy it because women spend more than men do and women see more value in talent than in sex. Celtic Women sold a lot of albums and you don’t see them flashing their tits do you? You can stay in your world of hyper-reality, some of us would prefer the real thing.


      Reply
    12. eminazi

      You are such an ass hole. Perhaps the real problem is that it is all so one sided. I wouldn’t mind seeing a little dick out there, but men think that is too demeaning and undercuts their talent, HaHa. Which makes it very clear what those men think women’s talent is. The very men who have no talent and would never make in on thier own, except as a pimp would, on the cunt of some woman.


      Reply
    13. Jade

      Tired of the feminist rants? Lets get some change going on then. Bit less misogyny perhaps. You think you are bored of hearing about it? Think how bored we all are having to say it all the time- and nothing ever changes. We’re not in the 70’s anymore. There is no room for Page 3 and fembot tarts waving their fanny’s around on TV. Everyone may call Charlotte Church a hypocrite, but that shows you are not listening to what she is saying. She is talking from an informed, inside perspective. She is one of the victims of this trend of over-sexualizing female artists in the media then shaming them for doing exactly what they are told to. I think she is just trying to help the next generation and break the trend.


      Reply
    14. Have a little conscientious humanity

      So, “Tired of the Feminist Rants”, is that what you want your daughters or would have wanted your mother to grow up desiring – to be just a ‘sex pot’?
      OF COURSE everyone’s considered that some women want to be marketed like that. The point Charlotte Church, and most feminists are making is that these women want to be marketed as a ‘sex pot’ because they feel it’s the only way to get anywhere in life. That’s the only way to be validated. The only way to get enought ‘facebook likes’. And that’s because that’s is what they’ve grown up seeing. That women have no value other than what their body has to offer men.
      That is the problem that perpetuates this horrific state women are dumped in.
      YOUR views perpetuate this horrific state women are left in.
      Take a step back and remember the women or little girls in your own life and consider what it is you want them to be valued for.


      Reply
    15. Velouria

      Aw, you’re “tired of feminist rants” – well women are tired of taking crap from jerks so tough titties. Suck it up, butthole.


      Reply
  2. Myles

    Anyone who wants to use censorship to control what people think and how people behave are doomed to failure.


    Reply
    1. nat

      i hardly think that young teenagers are ‘thinking’ (by which i mean looking at any music videos with a critical eye, or asking what the message they are being given is) when they watch things uncensored. I’m not advocating censorship at a broad level and for every area of the media, but there are varying degrees of censorship that inform the audience about the content, and not just impede access to the work/art. I definitely agree with Church’s statement. Otherwise, pieces of art/music just go by and through the ordinary user without them even stopping to think if this is the norm…or if there is an alternative way of looking at the human body and dignity.


      Reply
      1. enness

        Well said. You can see the effect on a person of having passively absorbed such messages over the years. It’s scary. Maybe I notice more because I have no TV — if I want something, I have to look specifically for it.


        Reply
      2. Josephine

        When I read CC’s lecture (and the various responses) and see some of these videos and other media images I’m glad I have no daughters. Or sons for that matter. Educating kids with a critical eye is tough work. Media ‘role models’, subliminal and explicit messages and peer pressure are a powerful cocktail when youngsters (and not so young) are searching for their identity and values.


        Reply
    2. Jenn

      She is not advocating censorship control for everyone, just children. How did you not get that?


      Reply
      1. Lulu

        Why is government sensorship of children a good idea but not of adults? I know many children that are much more capable of sensible thought then the majority of the “adults” on this website are. How are our kids ever going to become informed adults if they only see one side of every argument? I’m not saying that anyone should be able to see anything but I am saying that rather than setting a single mold that will effect all people under the age of 18 maybe it would be better to let someone that knows the individual child and what they are capable of decide what they can and can’t watch. Every single person on earth has the right to decide what they think about the world and that includes children, so get of your high horse and remember that EVERYONE has the right to freedom of speech and you can not take that away, unless you want to live in a world like the one in 1984 (by George Orwell). I’m 14 and I am perfectly capable of understanding what you deem as “not age appropriate”.


        Reply
        1. OPB

          By the time I was old enough to legally do all the things only adults are allowed to do, I was old enough to realise that I’d rather poke my own eyes out with a stick for a variety of reasons. At 14 you don’t know what you don’t know, unless you have been seriously over-exposed. Which is precisely the point here. No 14 year old (or 12 year old, or 6 year old, or 17 year old) is “missing out” by having their access blocked to heavily sexual music videos. “Viewing pleasure” aside, nobody’s perception of real-life sexuality, gender roles and healthy relationships is improved by watching this content. For young people who have not yet gone far down the path of identifying their own attitudes towards sex, this content then begins to inform their perception of reality (even though it’s unrealistic, unattainable and generally outright vulgar) instead of being something extra on the side. There are a number of commenters here proving my point- carrying on like a popstar’s sexuality is their birthright.

          If binging on sexualised music videos is the life you want for yourself, there’s plenty of time as an adult for such things. I would hope that people are not exposed to this content before they are able to make truly informed decisions. (Although I completely agree, many adults are no better). Good luck in the world :)


          Reply
    3. Good Gravey

      Idiots like you who think this is about censorship. When you say whatever you like, it is freedom of speech. But when we do it, it is censorship.

      To everyone “sick of these rants” there is one very simple thing you can do so that you never have to worry about them again. No, I don’t mean not read them. You can help to bring about an end to the sort of thing we are fighting against. You can help bring about a change that sees women being treated with dignity, respect and equality. Trouble is, that’s probably too much work for you.

      If ANY of you are in any doubt about how much we need feminism, head over to Twitter and check out @EverydaySexism. Try #ShoutingBack. Try actively looking.

      And yes, all these men are extremely insecure. They are so fearful of losing their privilege, unaware that they’ll be losing nothing, but gain everything. As a cishet white male feminist, I can assure you. There is nothing to fear.

      And you ranting men, FFS learn some English.


      Reply
      1. Really?

        Hello, I done a poo.


        Reply
    4. Well...

      There’s censorship, and then there’s promotion. By promoting certain things that some people have decided (based on money, sexism, or whatever) are better or are going to be more successful, the industry floods our market with the stuff, and uses up resources that could be spent on something else. Trying to take the focus away from sex, abuse of women, violence, etc. and turn it more evenly toward the kinds of performance and music that’s already being written is not censorship, it’s actually the opposite.


      Reply
    5. Hippo

      At the age of 15, I knew there was something horribly wrong with a music industry that relies on the exploitation of women’s bodies to make money. I would have supported censorship of videos at 15, as I do now.


      Reply
      1. Beetbox

        A lot of people feel like you Hippo.


        Reply
    6. pjh

      it’s not about censorship, it’s about informing people about what they are watching. I think it’s definitely time to have some kind of rating for music videos. Not that film classifications are perfect, Jack Nicholson once said that it was more acceptable in movies to slice off a woman’s breast than to kiss it and I don’t think things have changed that much since. It’s a start only, but it’s still a start.


      Reply
  3. Old Timer

    What happened to the good old days of the establishment getting all bent out of shape over Elvis or Little Richard? Do you remember the days when Jim Morrison, Robert Plant and Mick jagger would prance around stage in really tight pants and shirt unbuttoned? What about when Iggy would whip it out and cause a riot?

    Uh Oh I’m getting a little too excited


    Reply
    1. Old Timer

      I forgot about Freddie Mercury, David Bowie and Prince performing in those ever so tight tights. I do believe even Ted Nugent would perform in tights with a little furry tail dangling from behind. I wonder if they knew they were being sexually exploited to sell a few extra records.

      Who was it that had women throwing their panties on stage? Tom Jones or was it Frank Zappa?


      Reply
      1. Old Timer

        and don’t forget about all those hair metal bands causing such sexual confusion in impressionable young minds.

        I am thinking about David Lee Roth in a leotard while Eddie caressed his axe between his legs.

        OK I’ll stop now, I can’t take so much overt sexuality


        Reply
  4. mdti

    Very interesting article and opinion.


    Reply
  5. Christine Ben-Ameh

    I recently read this article on http://www.digitalmusicnews.com and I was not quite sure whether I should feel ‘empowered’ as a female artiste or be embarrassed that as women we are making excuses again.
    While a lot of points made by Charlotte Church have some element of truth to them, we must all try not to forget that truth is relative and ultimately guided by choice.
    In her speech, the first statement that caught my attention was
    “It is a male-dominated industry, with a juvenile perspective on gender and sexuality.” and I wondered how with the sexual evolution over the years affecting even policies of gay rights and gender equality how this may not be applicable in its total sense as gender roles tend to juxtapose in different scenarios. But that aside I went on to read and try to understand if there might be more to this speech to clear my doubts as to if the stated problem of women objectification might have a solution.

    To begin with, the three main roles that women are allowed to fill in modern pop music may be applicable to men as well except that the only changes that apply are as a result of the different ways that both genders are wired to respond to life’s situations. This is what art and music is designed for right? To translate these situations from different perspectives to the audiences. How else can this be done if roles are not defined to some extent?

    Men also have taken off their clothes (D’Angelo and LL Cool J are my favorites) and still rip off their shirts in concerts which the ladies love and very much appreciate. Is there something wrong with women doing that too? (oops!)

    I cannot comment objectively enough as to the idea of rating videos because I strongly believe that choice allows every individual to enjoy what they will

    Her final statement where she says ‘…putting the power back in sex, for a future world where humans are able to portray their sexuality as it is for them.” debunks her initial argument and drives right back to the subject of “choice” and individual preference. Sex does not need to be further powered. Sex sells! We all know this and we all like it.

    As a woman I choose that art and music be portrayed the way you feel it with or without your clothes on. I choose to not allow people’s reactions to my choices push me to start to shift the blame to an industry I am a part of and cannot do without on the basis of my career’s survival. And if in the instance these choices become too heavy to shoulder, do something else with my life.


    Reply
    1. JTVDigital

      +1
      :-)


      Reply
    2. lroosemusic

      ^^^ This ^^^

      “I cannot comment objectively enough as to the idea of rating videos because I strongly believe that choice allows every individual to enjoy what they will.”

      +1


      Reply
      1. mdti

        Teens and children do not have choice, they seek models and are sponges to real or fake models.

        You can feed them with puritan images or porn images: it would change their future.

        Are we psychanalists to know what can happen and to have an educated “opinion” on such matters, that we treat from our adult ages and our personal stories and beleif ?

        I am in favour of censorship, because it is too easy to attract attention with violence and sex and sugarcoat this with ideas of freedom and choice which are anything but freedom or choice.
        People are not equal before these things, as they are not equal before anything else; 2 people see an horrible accident: one of them will forget about it, another one will be traumatised for his life.

        Respect the differences between people !
        That’s how you can give them freedom and choice.

        i guess !


        Reply
        1. Myles

          Why not teach the children the difference between a “real or fake model”? Why not the parent take responsibility and be the role model? God forbid we should teach our children that it is wrong for someone else to tell them what they should see, hear and think.

          Why not teach your children how to judge the value of what they see and here? Wouldn’t that be more beneficial to a person for the rest of their life?

          You (and apparently Charlotte Church and Annie Lennox) seem to think that children are incapable of recognizing inappropriate, offensive or vulgar ideas, images or messages.

          Censorship is wrong, whether it is a seemingly harmless ratings system or outright banning of information the person in authority objects to.


          Reply
          1. Anonymous

            There is pretty much nothing vulgar about sex to begin with. Violence on the other hand…

            Which thing do you think of society stigmatizes more? Human making or human killing?

            It’s completely fucking bonkers is what it is.


            Reply
            1. Visitor

              Yes showing nipple gets an R rating from the MPAA. Gunning down people every fifteen minutes PG-13


              Reply
              1. Paula Wertheim

                LIKE.


                Reply
          2. enness

            I don’t think anyone is saying parents shouldn’t use things as teaching moments in appropriate ways. But the fact is, you have cultural forces that are at best irresponsible and at worst predatory, aggressively working to separate youth from their parents’ values in order to sell them something and get them hooked on the product. Children deserve not to have their innocence stolen, and parents have their work cut out for them. I hardly think we should absolve the industry of all blame.


            Reply
          3. enness

            P.S. If Myles has children, has ever taught school, or has ever taken a child psychology course, I’ll throw my coffee out the window and eat my hat.


            Reply
            1. Caterina Maria

              I agree with him, and I actually did have a semester of adolescent development — a very good one. Solid A. There’s room for dissent even when it comes to the raising of children. Surprise!


              Reply
              1. BeckyM

                Surprise! I’m pretty sure you need more than an “A” in one class to even have a remote clue on how hard it is to make sure you pass the values you want your children to have on to them while all these other “forces” are wanting your kids to have their values also.

                Dumbass.


                Reply
              2. BeckyM

                By the way, my qualifications for knowing what I’m talking about is that I’m a mom to a 12 year old girl and a 10 year old boy. NEXT!


                Reply
                1. I Love Music!

                  Way to get them Becky. Not only are kids influenced so are we as adults, by everything. If you don’t believe me do some research on it. Or experiment with this: try filtering out all romance and sex scenes from TV, Movie and music consumption for a month. And come back and tell me how your life is different. Filter out the daily news from your life that has “if it bleeds it leads mentality” news story. And see if you feel better about yourself and your life. The reality is all mediums affects our beliefs, thoughts, and feelings. When you realize that you will seek balance in all things!


                  Reply
          4. Beetbox

            I am sure we all went through our teens… Sooo mom and dads “opinions” on morality weren’t “hip” with the kids. Teens. Are. Impressionable.


            Reply
        2. lroosemusic

          I disagree with you, and would say that “acceptable for a child” is a subjective term that is based on the parents’ discretion.


          Reply
    3. enness

      How is it an “excuse” that young female performers can be easily manipulated by those with authority over their careers?

      “truth is relative”
      No, it is not. Contradictory claims cannot both be true. Five people who witness an accident may all have a different opinion of what happened. All of them may be wrong. It doesn’t follow that they are all right.

      “Sex sells! We all know this and we all like it.”

      Speak for yourself, will you? Not all of us love to see one of the most profound and intimate aspects of the human experience used to sell a stupid car.


      Reply
    1. mdti

      you call this pic “sexy” ? hoiw would you rate JLo pic in the article, or Miley’s and Gag’s asses ? (even if they are nice to look at, from a hetero-male perspective of course ;-)

      we have very different definitions :-)

      And that’s the whole point !


      Reply
      1. stopbeingsoprudish

        not the first one, there some in the series that may be considered as “sexy”, well a bit at least!
        oh come on!


        Reply
    2. Jamie W.

      That’s a very nasty thing to say – she addressed that in her speech, where she confessed that she had made some of these same errors when she was young, but all the (middle-aged male) producers and professionals around her told her go ahead, it’s fine, you should show it off.

      No young girl in a similar position understands that she does have the power to say “no.” That’s why the producers and others get away with it. It is up to us, the responsible adults, to tell our growing daughters that it’s not okay for girls and very young women to be exploited, that they have other options, that they are much, much more than their sexuality. I’m sad that Ms. Church did not have that kind of guidance when she was younger, and applaud her for having the courage to step up – despite people like you, Prudish, who will attack her – and speak up for the true empowerment of young women following her in the industry.


      Reply
    3. Zum

      Did you not read where she said she was pressured to pose in revealing outfits etc by her management when she was still pretty young and malleable and they ensured she knew who was paying the bills?


      Reply
    4. ChipLeFien

      You probably missed that part (and the part leading to it) :

      Whilst I can’t defer all blame away from myself, I was barely out of my teenage years, and the consequence of this portrayal of me is that now I am frequently abused on social media, being called slut, whore, and a catalog of other indignities that I am sure you’re are also sadly very familiar with.

      It was, after all, only written in just above 30px.

      You tried to shoot the messenger, and failed.


      Reply
  6. Just Sayin...

    It would seem to me that the Brits are light years ahead of Canadians and Americans when it comes to recognizing that our highly sexualized society is killing our children.

    In North America, we are even more concerned with protecting Constitutional rights than children. We take this to further extremes than even the Catholic church with its own dogmatic adherence to certain things.

    This isn’t about prudishness, but rather this is about avoiding a world where our children are simply sexual objects and nothing more.

    Kudos to Charlotte for recognizing where she went wrong and having the courage to stand up and say so in typical British eloquence.


    Reply
    1. Danwriter

      “It would seem to me that the Brits are light years ahead of Canadians and Americans when it comes to recognizing that our highly sexualized society is killing our children.”

      Ever seen UK Tabloid The Sun’s Page 3 Girls?


      Reply
    2. enness

      Funny you should say that — I was thinking that what Church has articulated is, probably unwittingly, very compatible with actual Catholic teaching. It acknowledges her past unflinchingly but does not make it the sum total of her or her life; it asserts that some social responsibility is needed without denigrating the primacy of parents; it promotes children’s innocence as something worthy of protection; it does not exclude the possibility of art (although the things some people try to pass off as “art” can beggar belief). Catholic =/= puritan.

      I read a cool article recently that speaks to this subject and might interest you: http://www.catholicvote.org/what-the-pope-taught-me-about-food-sex-and-god/


      Reply
  7. David

    She doesn’t know what the word ‘jettison’ means, but I’m surprised she can write so articulately! Assuming the speech was all her own work, of course.
    But as to the ‘sexism’ of the music industry, the other side of the coin is that sexuality helps to sell the work of attractive young women without any notable singing or songwriting talent. Take away the sexualisation and they would be out of a job. The really talented female singers and songwriters, like Laura Marling or Imogen Heap, don’t sell themselves by sexual imagery. Though I must say I was surprised to see Natasha Khan (Bat For Lashes) strip naked for her album cover.


    Reply
    1. Just Sayin...

      I’m sure she knows what jettison means. My experience has been that the average British high schooler has better control of the English language than most Ivy League grads. Doesn’t make them smarter, more artistic or more entrepreneurial, just more articulate.


      Reply
    2. enness

      Out of a job *in that industry,* you mean. I don’t have a huge range of skills, but I’ve had jobs outside of music. It’s not like that is their only option.


      Reply
    3. Arithmomancy

      You do realize that you just summed up Church’s entire objection about the industry, which is that:

      Women in music who don’t hyper-sexualize their image are not allowed to succeed.

      Don’t you think that’s a problem? How much musical talent is the world missing out on because the body containing it is female and not considered “sexy enough”? Why is that a requirement with women in music? There’s no justification for it.


      Reply
    4. Jujubee

      Funny how the first instinct you had was to assume that a female popstar couldn’t possibly know what the word jettison means; the industry at work.


      Reply
      1. Caterina Maria

        It’s not an assumption. She misused it in the text.

        Also, does nobody actually know what Lolita was really about? I feel bad for Mr Nabokov. The one work of his anyone recognises and they get it direly wrong.


        Reply
        1. Kat

          Um, no, she pretty much nails Nabokov’s Lolita in this. Nabokov’s Lolita was a girl who was seen as a sexual object without either her consent, agency or even action. Humbert Humbert is a very clear example of an author’s use of an unreliable narrator (and antihero) in a narrative told from a close, first-person viewpoint. His portrayals of Lolita as sexual and purposefully alluring are used by Nabokov to illustrate the psychological distortions that predators use to justify themselves.

          Church is protesting an industry that sexualizes girls. The artists are getting younger and younger, and more and more explicit at a younger age–Madonna was already 26 when she released “Like a Virgin” and her explicit depictions of sexuality didn’t really start until she was already in her 30s. Miley is only 21, and has been doing sexualized performances since she was 17 (“Can’t be Tamed” was 2010).

          The music industry forces sexual portrayals, images, and conduct from young performers in the guise of “marketing”. The music business argues that “sex sells”, that teenagers “have choices” about how they are exploited, that it’s really self-expressive and freeing and Miley’s “the world’s biggest feminist”. Yet the artists in question do not receive the lion’s share of the monies generated by their exploitation, Church describes she did not feel she had free choice in her own personal experiences as a teen girl in the music industry, and if a teen is being directed to perform these kinds of actions, it is clearly NOT self-expressive. And, frankly, the fact that Miley’s managers considered it appropriate for a 17-year old to perform moves commonly performed in strip clubs (in 2010) gives me no confidence that the situation is at all improving for teen girls who are currently caught in this industry.

          In other words, the music industry’s “message” is the same as Humbert Humbert’s narration. Both are unreliable narrators and anti-heroes. Both should not be allowed near any girl, and certainly should not have near-parental authority (in some cases, more than parental authority) to direct girls and “barely legal” young women to perform for their own pleasure and profit.

          Church does combine that point with the separate (but equally valid) positions that children should not be unwillingly exposed to sexually-explicit material, that parents have very little ability to provide pre-screening of content produced by the music industry (since songs and videos don’t have ratings on them, even though other forms of media do), and that this entire system is designed to maximize profits for everyone but the female artists in a male-dominated industry. I can see why people might get confused about her comparison to Lolita, precisely because so many people don’t get it right at all (and some even try to use “Lolita” as an excuse for their own predatory sexualization of barely-pubescent girls).

          But I find her analogy quite impressive. I can’t claim I know whether she thought it through that deeply or not, but given the rest of her argument, I imagine she probably chose the analogy with care.


          Reply
          1. Vonnie

            Well said, Kat!


            Reply
  8. hippydog

    I’m gonna take this article as Pauls way of apologizing? or he just wants to stir-the-pot some more LOL
    ;-)


    Reply
    1. Anonymous

      I think it has more to do with getting traffic on his website than some type of apology.

      That’s show business


      Reply
      1. Yves Villeneuve

        I don’t understand why everyone is so negative about the music industry right now and calling it nasty things like sexist. Next someone is going to try to talk about it being racist (which it is not at all.) I have never experienced any of these problems. We live in a great industry and should enjoy it rather than complain.


        Reply
        1. GGG

          Wait, a white male living in Canada who is only “in” the industry because he released some hack records on iTunes hasn’t experience racism or sexism? Shocking.


          Reply
        2. Yves Villeneuve

          Again, some child is using my name to post. Disregard.

          Paul, can you filter this person out. Don’t have time to scan the DMN pages for impostors. I’m guessing you have the data and resources to fill my request. If not, let me know my options. Thanks.


          Reply
        3. Ada

          Ironically, that’s already happened with Lily Allen’s Hard out here… just a distraction from the well-pitched, sharp-tongued brand of feminism it comes with, of course.


          Reply
  9. Sweg

    So…which archetype does Billboard chart-topper Lorde fall under?


    Reply
  10. Anonymous

    Ladies,

    Men have grew this really evolutionary complicated appendage called a penis for ONE purpose and ONE purpose only: sexing up women.

    You’ll need to stop acting like this is some kind of new “cultural” issue. Women have been “sexual objects” to males for millions of not BILLIONS of years. You aren’t going to undo that with your femnazi bullshit. If you nice tits and ass (which are biological markers, by the way, indicating your relative fertility to the man who is programmed to spread his genetic code, using YOU, prioritizing females who are more likely to get pregnant) – you are a sexual object to a man. Any man who says otherwise is either lying, or homosexual. Period. End of story.


    Reply
    1. Anonymous

      Even all the silly things women do to pretty up (which the OP is definitely guilty of) is all just a biological ploy to increase the appearance of being healthy and fertile. Women are also programmed to act that way and worry about how they look at a deep level. Because they have same evolutionary objective men do, to spread their genetics to the next generation. The difference the strategy men have to spread their genetics don’t work with female genitals, so their strategy is different. A man who is able to fuck anything that moves is going to have hundreds or even thousands of children, that’s the optimal condition for a man (fucking everything that walks).

      The optimal condition for a women is different because they can’t have any many children. So care more to be in a situation where the children survive. So they are more picky with their partners, and they look for things that men don’t really give a shit about in their partners.

      But regardless, humanity and life itself is simply an optimizing chemical reaction. It can always be reduced to that level.


      Reply
      1. LaylaReinaRosa

        I want to use you as something… as a door mat that I can wipe my feet on. Please kindly pull your scrotum over your face, it will serve this world with great deal of good


        Reply
        1. Chuck D

          cause he’s right i bet huh?


          Reply
      2. AKM

        This is garbage. We are humans, not animals, we have choice and control over our actions. Further there are a number of societies in history, and today, that do not function the way you describe.


        Reply
    2. hippydog

      You’ll need to stop acting like this is some kind of new “cultural” issue. Women have been “sexual objects” to males for millions of not BILLIONS of years.
      OK.. The post above shows that misogynists and racists have one thing in common.. they are both idiots..
      1.) maybe try to a place called a “museum”.. and you might learn things like, ‘what the earth was like a billion or even a million years ago..
      2.) Its only the recent religions (the last few thousand years) where females became ‘objects’
      3.) Humanity has walked longer then we drove.. Your argument sounds like we should not drive cars because ‘thats how it is’.. Society changes, at one time racism was considered normal, should we go back to that? or Evolve?


      Reply
      1. hippydog

        Quote “You’ll need to stop acting like this is some kind of new “cultural” issue. Women have been “sexual objects” to males for millions of not BILLIONS of years.”

        umm. that was supposed to be a quote.. I guess the HTML tags dont work..


        Reply
      2. enness

        Hmm, here’s one ‘recent’ religion’s take on the creation of woman:

        The LORD God said: It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suited to him. [A helper — not a toy!]

        the man said:

        “This one, at last, is bone of my bones

        and flesh of my flesh;

        This one shall be called ‘woman,’

        for out of man this one has been taken.”

        That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.

        Furthermore:
        “So [also] husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. ” (That is from Paul’s letter to the Ephesians.)

        This is old, old stuff. Like 2,000+ years old. I don’t know what our friend’s excuse is for arguing that women (or anybody for that matter) are objects — he’s way behind the times!


        Reply
      3. enness

        I see, he’s a reductionist. He must be a real hit at parties.


        Reply
    3. Paula Wertheim

      Thanks for that helpful reminder. I’ll try and keep that in mind next time I find myself watching a simulated gang bang instead of a musical performance. :-(


      Reply
  11. Yves Villeneuve

    Women are just as competitive as men. They don’t need the music industry to guide them.

    For example, many women will unilaterally choose an extra button to undo, just to get the extra edge over their competitors, men and women.

    Do feminists want to make swimming in swimsuits criminal?

    Should children be protected from naked exposure? I say yes, because I don’t want them to grow up immune to naked exposure. This is a real danger, not fairy tale.


    Reply
    1. GGG

      Stop. We don’t need a fake Yves to make the real one look like a fool, he does that plenty on his own.


      Reply
      1. Anonymous

        LOL


        Reply
      2. not yves

        actually, I’m pretty sure that WAS the real one.


        Reply
    2. enness

      If it gives them an “edge over their competitors,” then it is NOT unilateral. I don’t see how that is not obvious.


      Reply
  12. Alicia

    I think that we are missing the point. She is not suggesting that no one should be sexy, EVER, (see references to Bjork, etc), she is stating that she is disappointed that that seems to be the most prevalent recourse that women are taking, seemingly only to please men, and the only one widely accepted by society at large, as opposed to fighting for less sexual power roles and more diversity in expressions of power in pop.


    Reply
  13. Anonymous

    I have heard this tired old argument before.

    “When I’m assertive, I’m a bitch. When a man is assertive, he’s a boss.”

    How about we agree with a more gender neutral description of all assertive people. I think a-hole might work or maybe tool.

    Will that put an end to this nonsense that men who act assertive are never called asshole or prick or jerk-off


    Reply
  14. Ryan

    The thing is, the men are subjected to these forces as well. It’s just that what men find attractive and what women find attractive are two different things. So saying you don’t see men in thongs is comparing apples to oranges. Most women would not find that attractive, it would be a bit too much for them. Am I saying that everything is fair and perfect? No definitely not, but I think you’re only seeing one side of it and ignoring the fact that this happens everywhere to everyone. I think it’s just that guys don’t feel the need to say anything about it. If I don’t like how I’m being treated or viewed, I get out of the situation and realize that there are a million opportunities for me in the world that don’t expect me to forego my values and beliefs.


    Reply
    1. enness

      ” If I don’t like how I’m being treated or viewed, I get out of the situation and realize that there are a million opportunities for me in the world that don’t expect me to forego my values and beliefs.”

      I’m not sure you realize how fortunate you are to be able to say that. Many people aren’t.


      Reply
    2. Deb

      “Most women would not find that attractive, it would be a bit too much for them.”

      lol… I’m sure as a man, you are the expert on what “most women” want.


      Reply
  15. Paula Wertheim

    I certainly agree with every point in this article, but why all the whining?? After all, if we were talking about offensive displays of anti-semitism, child exploitation, slavery or other social ills, the victims usually band together, stage a wall-to-wall protest with the media in tow, then go through legal channels to sue the pants off of the offending party. End of story. Problem is, not enough women seem to care about this issue. How can women rant about “bad boys” when millions of women and girls go to sleep at night and dream of becoming the next famous “eye candy” like Madonna, Britney and Jennifer?

    I’m waiting for the day when enough woman on the planet wake up and realize that attention and publicity from men are not the same (in their minds) as “respect” . Just what kind of “respectful” thoughts are normal males supposed to be having while watching a beautiful woman strip and simulate sex in a music video or when a group of attractive females stage a “protest” and pose naked for a group shot?

    If women as a group can’t resist the tempation to degrade themselves in front of men in the name of “art” or “respect” , they have no right to complain whenever some man steps out of line and grabs the bait.


    Reply
    1. enness

      “After all, if we were talking about offensive displays of anti-semitism, child exploitation, slavery or other social ills, the victims usually band together, stage a wall-to-wall protest with the media in tow, then go through legal channels to sue the pants off of the offending party.”

      I’m sorry, but what?? Several million victims of anti-semitism could not stage a protest with media because they were too busy getting gassed in Nazi showers. Slaves and exploited children can’t generally band together and protest unless they are emancipated first. While not quite the same, I’m sure it’s not walk in the park to go up against someone who could single-handedly destroy one’s career.

      As far as apathy goes, you find that in a lot of places. Even in the face of something deeply offensive you find people insisting you just have no sense of humor, lighten up, get a life.

      I agree more people in general ought to care and take it seriously, but nobody forfeits their right to be treated with respect or to tell the truth about what’s happening.

      I don’t mean to pick on you, but I feel as though your post displays quite a limited perspective.


      Reply
  16. Doug Selby

    Thank you Charlotte Church!

    In fact, thank you anybody who thinks that art should address artistic beauty and conscience. Hell, I would even go for, mediocre music if it said something worth listening to … but nah, what for?

    WHY does anybody deserve anything better – or even the best? Give them shit in all shades for all I care … damn morons who couldn’t cook a decent meal and think that true artistry is about being naked.

    But I write this note to Charlotte’s detractors. You are children – and you’ve probably never seen a man or woman get naked – but let’s say that you have – and are drooling even now, do you really believe that you have the wherewithal to understand what the hell it is you’re eating? I daresay NOT!!! You are being fed so-called-art by Simon Cowell, so-called music producers and songwriters – because THEY KNOW YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO KNOW WHAT ART REALLY IS LIKE! They’ve sold you a damn lemon and you think you got yourself a Ferrari. But, hey, so what if music industry pimps display their stable-o’-hos – and so what if the johns look like fans, well damn that’s life. You want what you want, and you want some mo’ – not too hard to understand; so the dealers are dealin’ it. But you gotta know that life ain’t so long that you can waste it going for wanna-be artists; who think that all you need is to be in your birthday suit to make you a star – cause baby, if Miley C was 58 and swinging butt-naked on that wrecking ball, that song wouldn’t amount to a hill-o-beans!!! So what we got here is a bunch of sex-starved people who can’t get it up when it comes to ART.

    And that’s how the industry makes tons of money – not with great product – but by getting you some prostitutes to numb your sensibilities!!! Now you’re an addict to mediocrity – and you can’t escape. No you can’t … cause you’ve been trained to like what your homey likes – you can’t think for yourself. You’re too damn scared to be different. Too bad you weren’t brave enough, smart enough, and not conscious enough to be your own artistic critic – cause critical thinking is part of who you are in this indescribably large universe – and you don’t matter, cause you said so yourself – by letting others think for your ass. Dummy.

    Hey Charlotte – keep on cookin’ and giving us the good stuff; cause, girl, life’s a bitch.


    Reply
  17. Esol Esek

    Charlotte Church had a spectacular voice and angelic look and both were gone by the time she was 18 or even younger? The charm of the child prodigy wore off. She was singing classical music, and doing it beautifully, but moving to pop was not a guarantee by a long stretch. She had to move from a gig that depended on her youthful talent, to something that required savvy, originality and writing talent and it didn’t happen.

    Showbiz has nothing to do with fairness, that’s why people love it, it’s what you can do to entertain. I’m always amazed how much women forget that other women are as or more critical of women’s looks than men are. Women support hot looking women and discard unattractive ones as much as men. Then again, look at Adele. Great voice, great songs, but not a sex symbol at all, and a great success. Meanwhile Jennifer Lopez is laughed at for shoving her crotch out into her 40s. Your argument dispels itself.

    Adele could’ve been you Charlotte Church, but it wasn’t, prob because you weren’t hungry and your career started too early. Go write some new great songs, you have name recognition. People will give you a shot again. But stop the whining. That doesn’t get anyone a second act in showbiz.


    Reply
    1. enness

      Interesting comment, but I’m not sure what it has to do with the article.

      Whether pop music requires “originality” is pretty debatable. A lot of it sounds very formulaic to me.

      I also seriously doubt women are driving the extreme sexualization of women we see on stage — lesbians just aren’t that great a percentage of the population, sorry!


      Reply
  18. Stephen D Forman

    Sorry Charlotte,

    As I listened to your repeated claims of victimization, it rang flat. After all, you’re our mothers, wives, daughters and sisters: why on Earth would we want to see you fail? On the contrary, in our eyes you are vibrant, intelligent, resourceful and clever. It’s our dream that you lead successful lives.

    To that end, it’s up to you, not us.

    In fact, I suspect Ms. Church could benefit from a quick review of Evolution.

    When selecting the most ideal mates for reproduction, female fertility is signified by outward appearing physical characteristics. Men find these traits desirable and compete for attention. On the other hand, a female, seeking a father who will provide for her children, looks for the traits in a man which signify this ability: money and power. The lesson here? The sooner a woman appreciates that her sexuality is a power she exerts OVER a man (and not vice-versa), the more control, choice and power she reserves.

    This is why Gloria Steinem (no shrinking violet) voiced support for Miley Cyrus– and for young women choosing to enter beauty pageants. She “gets” it. These women “get” it. Ms. Church– by building up a straw man (literally made of all men)– and victimizing herself, does not.


    Reply
    1. M. Kotke

      Chill Dude!

      Yeah, we get it – the music business is not what it used to be. There’s a law of entropy that says everything’s going to the dogs – and the dogs have been let out. I got a gf working in a label and she hates what’s happening in the industry. Same-o, same-o. Said if there’s ever any hope for the industry it will have to come from something like The Beatles or the likes of them. A band that will save the world from boredom with bazenga bucko catalog of great music. But not likely cause there’s no such thing anymore – and if there is, it’s probably not going to be what we expected. Still, it would be cool if songs were something deeper than the crap we’re getting. Anyhoo – yeah, chill. There’s lots fo people out there just waiting for the next revolution in music. It’s probably gonna look like The Beatles, The Bee Gees, and The Jacksons – only composed of girls. Haha.


      Reply
    2. enness

      “After all, you’re our mothers, wives, daughters and sisters: why on Earth would we want to see you fail? On the contrary, in our eyes you are vibrant, intelligent, resourceful and clever. It’s our dream that you lead successful lives.”

      Maybe YOU are that kindly and altruistic a gent. I wish you spoke for all of mankind.


      Reply
  19. ladyferry

    For over 10 years now the British (and also American) music scene has been dominated by the ‘Cowell Illuminati Mafia’. Mr. Cowell and his Elite peers have been responsible for the destruction of real music for over a decade. These rich Elites have set the music agendas as to what puppets the public will and will not have access to, leaving real musicians and singers behind to struggle. We now have a clueless generation of kids who think the only way to be in a band or to be a solo singer is to line up for 8 hours at a cruel audition.

    The music business more so now than it was ever in the past, has been hijacked by the corporate Elites and now blatantly cultivate their Illuminati agenda with puppet artists that willingly fall to the dark side to promote a Satanic edge, with carefully crafted sophisticated pop videos full of Illuminati imagery and secret hand signs. Look at all the new female and male ‘Rappers’, the new ‘R & B’ singers and the new ‘Pop Princesses’ who have fallen willingly to the dark side? Disney is renowned for vomiting out Illuminati pop stars who may start a young impressionable life as child actors and actresses to be groomed for the Elite’s Satanic desires on the world stage as puppet pop stars. Walt Disney was a pedophile and was known to insert explicit sexual images in his famous children’s cartoons, he was also a member of the secret society ‘Skull and Bones’ and a prominent member of the Illuminati.

    Originality and something new has fallen to the wayside for the sickening agendas of the Elites who now control the destinies of these puppets in the music business they own. The dumb sheep-like fans eat it all up like poison candy, not knowing that the hand signals, postures and poses they emulate of their idols in their Facebook or Instagram photos are unwittingly promoting the deadly Illuminati Satanic agenda for the masses…

    So where is new and original musical talents these days? unless you are willing, groomed or forced to join the Illuminati club and sell your soul to the Devil – and the corporate music Elites that own you, that is where you will be. It’s a cruel game only for the weak-minded seduced by fame and fortune who are desperate enough to become a puppet slave spouting the agendas of their masters. For those of you not tempted, well there is the life-long obscure pub gigs with self-promotion, building up a fanbase and earning a pittance for your graft. That is until someone with any meaning spots you like in ye olden days at a gig you do. Or be like the brainless fame whore kids of today you could just wait 8 – 9 hours in a queue and do an audition that you will most probably fail. Which would you choose?


    Reply
    1. enness

      “We now have a clueless generation of kids who think the only way to be in a band or to be a solo singer is to line up for 8 hours at a cruel audition.”

      I’m a classical musician…LOL. They tell me now to expect to take 15 to 20 auditions before you get a decent job. Welcome to my world, kiddos.


      Reply
  20. Marita

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    Reply
  21. Greg Blackman

    This is an eloquent and well thought out piece of writing with much truth in it. As a professional musician, not to mention somebody possessed of two working eyes, I can clearly see the mainstream music industry is ridden with the most rank, engrained and systematic misogyny. It does indeed save the “limelight Budget” (which is most of the overall budget) for young females who are willing to perpetuate one of the three stereotypical roles Church identifies.

    However it does, as do so many contemporary feminism/female empowerment themed arguments, have a massive “Female Exhibitionism-Shaped Hole” in it. What about the legions of young woman that clearly use their sexuality to get attention because they enjoy attention so much that they don’t always stop to consider other people’s neuroses in their rush to get it?

    Speaking purely for myself I know a lot of young women who make that mistake before becoming older, wiser exhibitionists who temper their natural tendencies with a knowledge of a simple truth: that like it or not they must spend their lives surrounded by less extroverted folks who instinctively will resent such confidence and extrovert tendencies in others.

    The other major problem with this speech is that I’m not a 21 year old girl fresh out of college from studying feminism. I’m a grown up. I’ve lived in the world for some years amongst people who are clearly every bit as confused, contradictory, bitter, vengeful and capable of malice as myself and I’ve seen a little something of how women behave in the real world, which is why I don’t entirely tow the feminist line like a good little left wing boy is trained to do.

    I’ve seen that moment when a stunningly, naturally, physically attractive woman enters the room. I hate to tell you this, all you empowered feminists out there, but the horrible honest truth is that the other women in the room do NOT turn to her, smile warmly and welcomingly and say “Gosh isn’t she lovely, I really wish her well as a fellow sister!”. Sorry but they just don’t. It often seems to me as if the better looking a woman is the more hostility she will encounter from other women. I’ve seen women turn on each other in some disgustingly traitorous and machiavellian ways in my time on this planet because they just seem to naturally hate any women who might be perceived as a threat.

    Now there might be some amongst you who are tempted to take the most obviously marked Exit Door from any personal responsibility by saying “Oh but it’s the male patriarchy that MAKES them do that, they don’t have a choice.” Again, in theory I see what you’re saying but in reality they DO have a choice, everyone has a choice.

    I know plenty – trust me: PLENTY – of young hard working women who work professionally in the music biz who don’t trade on any of the cheap, easy barbie doll sexuality that Rihanna and her ilk choose to. They don’t rise as high as Rihanna, but what they do get is theirs, theirs alone and is earned through merit.

    Yes they could succumb to the pressure to get their tits and arses out to reach a wider audience, and it might well work. But if thaty’s sexism then please consider the obvious truth that I could do the same by hitting the gym and getting my top off (anyone who wishes to deny this may below attempt to explain the career and riches of Peter Andre and we’ll chat later). It’s equally likely to work, and why? Because, like it or not, there’s a veritable ocean of dim, sexist women out there who think men are just walking knobs with six packs who would lap it up and I’d do very nicely.

    Some of us choose not to walk that path and while I think it’s morally necessary to expose the double standards, rampant misogyny and infantile notions of female sexuality espoused by the mainstream industry (which really really IS run by the most horrific gaggle of immature, babbling perennial adolescents you could ever wish to be financially raped by, whatever anyone tells you). That’s all entirely true and it should be said a lot more than it is.

    BUT – it’s also therefor equally morally necessary to consider the source and acknowledge that Charlotte Church has done very nicely for herself by being in hello magazine, Marrying a famous rugby player, having her latest choice of tight top featured in The sun on MANY occasions and generally Playing The Game with so much success that she’s now allowed to stand on stage and tell everyone who chose NOT to play that game what a bad idea it was to do so. Sort of the ultimate definition of having your cake and eating it really isn’t it?

    What’s next, Milli Vanilli on the moral corruption of Miming? (okay I admit: I just put that in for a laugh. sorry)


    Reply
  22. Jennifer

    Very tired of all of the labelling I see when a woman speaks out about her views. It seems that people feel if they call her “childish,” “crazy,” “prudish,” or “a bitch” then they feel that her message is not valid and they don’t have to look at their own behavior or beliefs. Labelling a woman any of these things doesn’t mean that she actually is that thing and doesn’t mean that her message isn’t valid. It means that you are a misogynist and you can’t bear to consider that your view of the world might actually be hurtful to other people. Viewing a woman in black and white terms is simplistic and doesn’t take into account the incredible spectrum of human personality and experience. Stop thinking about what you believe women should be and allow them to be what they actually are . . . people.


    Reply
  23. rachel_peebles

    i hears u sis, and while i’m sad 2 have missed u in glasgow recently, i find your gender issues stance necessary and stimulating. it has long been known that ‘showing a bit of leg’ is a primally intelligent aspect of female expression, and one which can halt male thought, and in certain circumstances is 2 be congratulated and encouraged for that, non? shere hite possibly encouraged multitudes of ‘men’ to read her work using THOSE publicity pics earlier in her career and no one can deny she has brains as well as heart. maybe females need their ‘mad half-hour’ 2 neutralise their perceived inferiority, do the punk shock thang, feed their kids or all of the above – i, for one, find more difficult the terrible reality of trying explaining human-torch-tibetans one day 2 my child, more than a thousand twerks, however! thank you for your recent work and keep the welshcelt gene screaming in your sounds and all around sista x


    Reply
  24. Daniel Mirante

    The women singers are not separate victims of ‘the industry’ – they’re part of it, and they are as responsible as anyone, because they are complicit in it. This de-humanized, robotic sound, this robo-porn excuse for music is just what people get for being so insensitive to frequencies and imagery. The audience is the one supporting this facade of music.


    Reply
    1. enness

      How does one gauge complicity in a world of stage parents and people who can single-handedly destroy your fledgling career if you don’t do what they say, meanwhile armchair quarterbacks across the world will blame, ridicule, and minimize you no matter what you do? Especially if we’re talking about a minor?


      Reply
  25. Anonymous

    Well, it turns out it’s superb, full of atmosphere, evocative landscapes, icy bleakness and chilling orchestral effects. Hearing the whole score in its complete version is a revelation; the familiar items were always effective, but fleshed out like this with the missing numbers the epic scope of Vaughan Williams’s vision is fully realised, and suddenly we’re aware of how deeply affected he was by the story of Scott’s tragic expedition, and the unnecessary loss of life. No fewer than ten out of the eighteen numbers have never been recorded before, probably never performed – including such effective pieces as ‘Doom’ with its growling contra-bassoon and chilling brass, or ‘Ice Floes’, which shimmers and sparkles over a sinister bassline, giving the impression of an immense mass moving slowly but inexorably…while ‘Scott on the Glacier’ is a heroic vision that could sit proudly alongside Strausss Alpine Symphony.
    iPhone4


    Reply
  26. Lexy

    Get on Charlotte, have your say, you have just as much right as anyone else! There is sexism and inequality and thank you for reminding us all!


    Reply
  27. Anonymous

    The point is not censorship. The point is valuing women musicians for their ability and contribution, not for their sexuality, which many times isn’t even their own, but imposed upon them. Pop music is bad and gets worse and worse…..it is also interesting to think about why aren’t there more women in pop(as an umbrella genre)? Are women not as talented as men? Are they not able to write, produce or perform music? These are points that are important to the article not censorship. It is also interesting to think about the number of not stereotypical handsome male “pop” musicians. Then think about the female ones.


    Reply
  28. M Sinnott

    Well said Charlotte Church.


    Reply
  29. hearmeoutnowppl

    I just looked up Charlotte Church picture on Google to find out who she is. Her ginormous tits hanging out of her shirt in her photos don’t really help back her views up. (laugh)


    Reply
  30. MPD England

    I am surprised by the image chosen to accompany this text: a (possibly naked?) young woman with her mouth stitched closed. Would fit right in in a Robin Thicke video, no?


    Reply
  31. Suzanne Skaar

    “It is highly disappointing to know that the director of this video is a women” should read “woman”. Feel free to delete this comment once it’s been corrected. Cheers!


    Reply
    1. Paul Resnikoff

      Thanks for catching that. Too bad it took more than a 100,000 views before we caught the error, but moving on…


      Reply
  32. Paul F. Etcheverry

    As a jazz fan who saw Mary Lou Williams and Alice Coltrane play brilliantly, I agree that the treatment of women is pretty much emblematic of the mega-commercialization and pandering to the lowest common denominator ($$$$$$$). People forget, there was an time when the likes of Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughn, June Christy and Peggy Lee – real musicians – not only made albums of substantive music, but people actually BOUGHT THEM!


    Reply
  33. Paul F. Etcheverry

    What we can do in the dumbed-down environment and corporate takeover of music in 2013 is support indie artists whenever possible. Go see them in person and buy their DIY recordings. And Charlotte – good luck on your future endeavors.


    Reply
  34. SpeakEasy

    The point, to me, is that it is only women who are so objectified. How about we routinely see males strutting around stage in satin jock straps while well dressed women ignore them? Do you really think any of their handlers would have one of them in a pose like that Jennifer Lopez one? I don’t think so.


    Reply
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    Reply
  36. Krista Julienne

    This article is spectacular. Thank you.


    Reply
  37. Mmm

    Wow! Some of the comments I have read here are either sickening, understanding, over the top, common sense, cruel or kind.I see both sides to the story. What I want to ask is, do you think it is acceptable for young girls as young as seven viewing the types of music videos today? And of course it is the parents responsibility to monitor this, but at the same time should there not be a censorship on these videos like they do for films that have sexual content. Because that is what they contain, sexual content, no matter what form you like to call it or rationalise it to be.
    If artists of today are feeding off the artists of the 90s imagine what the up coming artists born in the 2000s will produce. Are you saying that is okay? What sort of future do we want our grand children to be a part of?
    If you are one of those persons who don’t mind labelling a woman as a sexual object for men, wait until you have a daughter of your own, then ask yourself again if you mind.
    We are not animals we are human beings that is what separates us from the animal kingdom otherwise we wouldn’t be a society or a civilisation.
    If we were all accepting of the lifestyle portrayed in these explicit video clips what a disgusting world this would be. Seriously do people out there really believe it’s okay for chicks to flash their bits around, what sick minds do they have? If that is the way some people want the world to be like, I sure hope I’m not around to see it or my own daughter OR my son for that matter.


    Reply
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  39. Digitalguru

    Sorry Charlotte Simple fact, you were a willingly exploited teen whos main funds and bank account as well as supposed celebrity status rely upon that , with no hint of any real contribution to the rock or pop world you seek acclaim or parity in now.

    You have No rock an roll pedigree, your music is at best pap, an you have no true credibility.

    Women do make it in rock an roll, and there are people whos careers who have far more merit than your own,who do it for themselves…

    The exploitation of sex appeal an imagery is as old as time, by those who run the industry, as well as those in it.

    You shouldnt have to exploit your body to get a hit record…., but you exploited an industry that liked naive little chorister types, like yourself an Aled Jones who at best fill Grannys Xmas present box every christmas…

    You or your parents happily had had your youth exploited as a sickly warbling teen.

    Now your in the adult world, an none of the kids like your music, its tough ****.

    Noone cares what you think, we never did, and the only people you mention in this lecture, are relative stars.

    There are many female artists who survive and flourish not because they are women, wearing low cut tops, doing groin grinding or wrecking ball cheap stunts, but because their music is good.

    You sadly do none of the above remotely well enough to be interesting at any level, other than having minimal history, a one time cute novelty,and who ended up with a celeb rugby player boyfriend !


    Reply
  40. Anonymous

    Whitney never even showed her arms let alone any body parts. She didn’t have to she could SING!!!


    Reply
  41. D Laurier Beaulieu

    Does anybody remember Suzi Quatro?
    She played her own instrument, wrote her own songs, and she wore clothes on stage..
    You could tell it was her by the way she sounded, and she didnt have to announce her name at the start of every other song.
    Today’s “pop stars” all sound exactly the same.
    Without video they are interchangeable, and you cant tell Niki Minaj from Brittney Spears from Milley Cyrus from any other “pop star”.


    Reply
  42. Tia

    You nailed it! And then there’s Nana Mouskoury. She just doesn’t go along with that crap.


    Reply
  43. Gorhob

    The industry was always going to devolve into this and I don’t think men can solely be blamed. As soon as the first talentless hottie realised she could get almost naked and make millions of dollars gyrating on television, everything was ruined.

    You can break into the industry without doing those things, you just have to have talent and work much harder. So why wouldn’t you get naked?


    Reply
  44. Ronnie

    Why the lipstick Charlotte?


    Reply
  45. rachel_peebles

    She wears lipstick to enhance what her mama gave her. S’a welsh thing. We’ll tell you when you’re older. Amen. X


    Reply
  46. nuetral

    Cindy Said, MONEY CHANGES EVERYTHING, So whomever does not want it, or does, has a free world to epress that option. Dont Like The Buisness, Stay out, Sing at the Church, Sing in the Shower wherever it suits your fancy. To complain after success that you were cohearsed to perform with seduction, is just shit. If you ate the apple, then that was your choice, dont say it wasn’t. Unless the acts were forced on someone, then give it a break, adult rating are for adults, shelter your teens as your responabilities require…..If you really dont like the industry, get out of the water…..Shit Show….


    Reply
  47. nike air max

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  48. This isn't feminism

    Sick of these rants, Edele is an amazing singer and doesn’t push the sexuality thing, Amy Winhouse wasn’t really a looker either(RIP) and both broke records

    I do not know one male friend, family or colleague who has bought a Miley Cyrus album because that is not her market. Her market is teenage girls from about 14-20 who are looking for someone who is proactive, controversial and fun. This is no different than a guy being a fan of Eminem because he is controversial and pushes the envelope to bizarre places(ala Kim for example) Miley Cyrus is a kids start trying to become a singer. she is in the “POP” genre so she needs an image that will help her sell records.

    My own opinion is that there are plenty of successful woman across the board I would imagine most of them don’t like it when woman are portrayed as victims as it is not the truth.

    On a final note if JayZ came out and said “Last week I launched a publishing company all male which is coincidence,,,, honest”! it would be used as a quote in a similar speech above.


    Reply
    1. This is feminism, and it addresses a very real problem

      I believe what you say about your males friends/colleagues not buying Miley Cyrus albums. But that’s really the kicker: Miley’s cash-grab sexuality isn’t aimed at men. It’s aimed foremost at getting money and attention; the former coming primarily from her ‘target market': a young female audience. The consequence of all this is that it perpetuates the belief that a girl’s most valued asset is her body, and that the most direct route to success is to whore it out.


      Reply
  49. Eric

    This is a great read. To the website: Please stop changing the font size, and adding BOLD letters. Most often I feel this is employed to heighten weak copy, but in this case the words speak for themselves.


    Reply
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  51. James Annesley

    This is the most intelligent article I’ve seen on the subject so far. No knee-jerk feminism, just honest perspective and well thought-out ideas. I like the fact that Charlotte still sees room for sexuality in the music industry as long as it’s done with self respect (ie Bjork). Sex and nudity are both inherently natural and harmless, but have too often been badly misused as cheap marketing vehicles. On the flipside, even as a straight guy I’d have no problem with men being portrayed in a more sexual way, as long as the self-respect is there.


    Reply
  52. C Hill

    What is also WRONG with this world is the people who comment SLUT WHORE TART and other derogatory statements on videos with women being sexual. They need to change the way they perceive women. Women should be allowed to be sexual without negative feedback. These people who hate on women being sexual are the same people who ultimately think that certain women deserve to be raped because of how they were dressed or were acting: “they were asking for it.” No. Women should be allowed to dress and act how they like and not be raped. There is no short cut to rape. It just shouldn’t happen at all.

    Males in the music industry, both behind the scenes and as artists need to be promoting female sexuality in a positive way instead of treating their sexuality like an object amongst their other material desires; cars, money, fashion, etc.

    Female artists however shouldn’t react so negatively to other women looking out for them, because essentially a lot of men are making these decisions for the female artists instead of the other way around. If being semi-naked or naked and sexual was their own decision, which obviously in Charlotte Church’s case (and most likely many others) it was not, they would feel more empowered than objectified. Instead of turning against the women speaking up for them, maybe they should reflect on their actions and really see whether it was all their decision, and if it was, calmly say it was, and thank them for looking out for them, as their actions don’t reflect how it is all over. If they feel insulted by it, because let’s face it, plenty of women think its OK for sexual women to be called slut and whore, because they have grown up in a pro-rape culture as well, they should address that calmly and educate them.

    Also, to all those men who use Feminist or Feminism as an insult. You’re backwards. These kinds of topics are being discussed because they are still an issue. Of course, YOU might not think its an issue. You’re male and maybe you’ve never been treated as a sexual object before (lucky you). But before you throw out those words as insults and talk about how tiring it is to read these articles, why don’t you think about all the women being objectified who feel they can’t speak up about it for fear of losing their work or giving up their dreams, and the women who are raped, sexually assaulted, verbally abused daily, hourly, right now? And how WRONG that is. Because, remember, it IS wrong. Just because you’re a nice guy, and you don’t hit/rape/sexually assault women, doesn’t give you a reason to be tired of these issues BECAUSE THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE. You’re not doing us women a FAVOUR by not behaving that way. The entire world should be like that. Just because you’re perceived world is free of cat calls and butt slaps and you’re not buying the records of these artists mentioned in these articles, doesn’t mean that the rest of half the god damn world aren’t being affected negatively by this negative view and use of sexuality. Stop being so ignorant.


    Reply
  53. hellooo

    the reason i object to over sexualsation in music (be it men or women) it that it takes away from the music itself, its using sex to sell records much like a perfume advert, or most other adverts, rather than letting the music speak for itself, it cheapens the music industry and the singers themselves (Who often leave the song writing to others – therefore becoming a glorified karaoke singer) and then market themselves as “the awesome singer” when that fails they try “the awesome sexual singer” – taking away from the music itself, focusing on looks and beauty, perhaps we shouldent call them musicians at all when it gets to that stage, rather just a “sexual performer”


    Reply
  54. Jessika

    Thank you Charlotte, you are correct. I think the point here is that women should hold the reigns and make the decisions. But its true that when you opt to avoid sexualization and objectification, the industry will attempt to chew you up and spit you out. Tori Amos is a fine example of an artist who presented her sexuality on her own terms without becoming raunchy. It wasn’t about the visuals, it was about the content and the connection a woman has with herself. And the industry DID try to hold her down and wouldn’t play her tunes on the radio. She STILL became one of the most successful artists of all time. Ladies, you just need to put your foot down and hold it there.


    Reply
  55. Ella

    There are over 8 billion people in this world and also a lot of talented musicians. If people are so tired of the mainstream filth, then by all means, simply tune it out. Spend some time with your daughters playing a Mazzy Star or Bat For Lashes album while doing arts and crafts. Stop plopping them down in front of the electronic babysitter with a McDonalds happy meal every night and actually do something about it, instead of complaining that the world is unfair. What’s even more ironic, is that Mazzy Star and Bat For Lashes ARE mainstream music. There ARE good, talented, female artists out there. Maybe Charlotte is just mad and jaded over losing her 5 minutes of fame and wants to blame it on artists she thinks are diverting all the attention due to their bodies. Those ‘sexualized’ women in the music industry made that choice. They chose to be the skanks of the music industry and they don’t mind it or they wouldn’t be doing it. So what? Skanks need a place in the world, too. If it bothers you, listen to other artists, do your own thing with your own people who understand and appreciate you. Bashing others who do not live as you see fit, won’t get you anywhere.


    Reply
  56. Just saying

    I read one comment about feminist blah blah blah something something don’t comment we wont mind and all that shit…. I am no male chauvinist… I am all about equality this is why I can’t stand one sided statements and actions….. Both male and female must be proud and should measure their intellect as their strength…. but its funny that I have seen it a thousand times once the “intellect” starts to fail immediately the sex kitten emerges… the giggly hair twirling T-back panty lulu lemon wearing don’t look at my bum although I am wearing this sheer thing… slut that “We’ve apparently created” appears. Or the fact that most feminist say they are not treated equally but would find it rude that you didn’t hold the door for them.. pull out a chair for them or wait for them to start eating… And all you girls and I mean all of you today who’s not a grandma owns a G-string or wants to own one and ALL of you including grandma will gladly and willingly want to flaunt it to their man… people in the media do the same but in a anonymity of the public eye. I don’t have access to J-Lo I don’t know her and will probably never know her so the fact she is in her undies jumping around is only what it is a Show…. like if you think KISS (the band) looks like their stage persona everyday of the year then you are mislead to believe it…. and lastly tell me you women don’t salivate about David Beckham and Christiano Ronaldo in underwear ads or something similar…. sex is primal we cannot control its desires…


    Reply
  57. Eileen

    A.L. Has it right. Let’s call it as it is and stop manipulating the youth. If it’s inappropriate for kids and per adults say it label it and be honest. Not too different than pushing alcohol or drugs on kid for $$$.


    Reply
  58. Bored

    Women are treated like commodities – fact. Men have more control and choice over their own musical careers than women – fact. Most of those in positions of power in the music business are ‘men’ but men are not the enemy, money grabbing exploitative sexists are. More men are sexist than women are sexist. Men on average have far more freedom and power than women. We do not live in an equal society. Women do not have opportunities equal to men by virtue of their sex. Women are taught that their value is based primarily on their looks. This is not the case for men. There is so much about being a woman that is unfair but ‘men’ are not the enemy. Sexist attitudes are. I am tired just thinking about how obvious and deeply ingrained the problems are.


    Reply
  59. Jesse Marczcyk

    Sure; there is not necessarily a need for women to be dressed relatively provocatively, but there’s not really a need for a lot of things. There’s not a need for doing drugs and getting black out drunk either, but that’s also a common theme in the industry, and it seems to be pretty popular among the listeners (which is likely why it’s a common theme in the industry). Excessive displays are common: artists don’t, strictly speaking, need backup dances, light shows, elaborate stages, or flashy outfits, but these things appear to help make the experience more enticing.

    My main issue with the piece is the attitude she seems to approach the issue from. Consider the following lines:

    “…Women Are Routinely Demoralized by the Music Industry”
    “The culture of demeaning women…”
    “Well, when the male perspective is the dominant one, the end point is women being coerced into sexually demonstrative behavior…”
    “…can’t but have a negative effect on women…”
    “…but carved out their own roles as human beings, not objects.”
    “…we have a lack of comfort in seeing women in these ultimate, authority roles”
    “So, is it simply all down to sexism? Myths about women perpetuated by men?”
    “If there are no sanctions put upon music…”
    ” If the power was taken away from sex in pop by making it harder for younger viewers to access it…”

    Now, as we agree upon, these are her interpretations of her experience of the music industry. She’s welcome to them, and I won’t try to argue that this is probably how she feels.

    However, she is framing her experiences and interpretations as if they were both accurate and common to other artists. She frames this issue as a type of “men vs. women” one, when it’s likely nothing of the sort; it probably has more to do with the divide between the more and less promiscuous among us, regardless of gender.

    (In essence, it’s similar to how the abortion debate gets framed as a “woman’s issue”, despite men and women supporting and opposing it in roughly equal percentages. There’s good evidence to suggest that it’s actually sexual strategies that drive these opinions; not gender, political affiliation, or religiosity.)

    While she does this, she is also, essentially and somewhat explicitly, calling for censorship to “protect” other people from making choices she personally disapproves of. One problem in this is that she never didn’t seem to ask these other people if they feel threatened, coerced, or in need of protection. She just assumes they do. My guess is that she had her conclusions ahead of time and never bothered to check them.


    Reply
  60. jordan

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  61. .....

    there are whores, and there are man whores, don’t call them playboys.
    there are perverts and there are female perverts, don’t call them Divas.

    The media portrays women in skimpy clothes to be sexy, men in skimpy clothes to be perverts.
    open your eyes, if J Lo’s perverted pussy in the picture above doesn’t haunt your mind for the rest of the day then you are under the control of media propaganda.


    Reply
  62. Michael

    I do agree with some parts of this, however, no one makes these women do these things?

    Personally, I believe if you are stupid enough to jump into the deep end of chart pop as some attractive young woman, you are setting yourself up for that.

    I can’t stress enough that if you simply don’t want to give into pressure and sexualise yourself, you do have other options. If you are unfortunate enough to be told “you’re done”, either find somewhere else that will respect you, or win people over independently if you’re such a talent.

    I honestly believe that half of the pop acts today cannot sing for shit, yet they make lots of money by doing some soft porn music videos and releasing albums which they can hire songwriters for their needs.

    These women aren’t victims, if anything they are empowering themselves by making easy money and giving themselves popularity which is way above the talent. They take these producers for a ride.


    Reply
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  64. Will

    Male pop stars are designed to sell sex as well (i mean what the hell does she think boy bands are?), its just that the way men display sexuality is different from the way women display sexuality. A woman might wear a skimpy thong to show off her butt, while a guy goes shirtless to show off his abs and pecs.


    Reply
  65. Louise

    Brilliant, I stumbled upon this by chance and am really impressed with the level of intellect and thought. I am also really relieved to hear these subjects finally coming to the foreground, the more it is unpacked the more wrong and damaging it becomes. I agree with Annie Lennox. I do not want my son to see women in this light and to have a two dimensional capitalist culture dictate how he should feel about women, the world, himself.
    x


    Reply
  66. Anonymous

    Too bad this whole speech and all the comments that followed it are essentially moot. Women are the ones who are buying this music en masse and thus supporting it, yet I see women on here blaming the “record producers” and the nasty patriarchy that pop music is nothing but smut. If you didn’t like it so much there would not be a market for it and thus it would not sell and the nasty men would go out of business, but your still buying that dross in its bucket load, and it becomes another wedge issue between men and women that feminists love to drive the stake into.

    Fucking feminism is full of double standards like this, and massive leaps of logic which is why I am an egalitarian and do not associate myself with you.


    Reply
  67. Savvy

    Some good points, but this article is ultimately flawed….


    Reply
  68. prattlingkook

    It is upsetting that so many comments here have regressed into a verbal slagging match. The focus should be on what Charlotte Church is saying. I think she has done a phenomenally good job of putting forward her argument that we need to address women’s place in the music industry. She has shown clearly the position of women in the music industry with obvious examples. It would benefit men and women alike (not just women) if music videos were focused on creating pieces of art that compliment the music. Think, if cheap money earners like showing sex, drugs, violence and the degradation of women were restricted, the music industry would be forced to think again. Be creative. Create art. A way to educate, enlighten, inspire! That would be incredibly exciting.


    Reply
  69. John

    I mostly agree but when she say’s the 3 types of women which according to her are One of the Girls’ Girls, the Victim/Torch Singer, and the Unattainable Sexbot. What about the Bjork or PJ Harvey, the actually musical goddesses that don’t need to do anything but make records and perform live cause they are amazing full stop. (Pretty much just referring to Bjork there)
    It would be so much better if women or girls of the younger generation looked up to women with actual musical talent than a slut with a voice.


    Reply
  70. Anonymous

    My musical teenage son finds it degrading that people assume he’s more interested objectifying women than listening to good music. He is insulted by the idea that he may not be able to control because a woman is dressed a certain way. It’s not women vs Men.


    Reply
  71. Yozi

    May I add that there is an entire generation of young women and young men who don’t actually know what sexy is? There is deep meaning and excitement in being subtle and elusive and it’s a shame that some will growing up not knowing that. This clownish public gyration is not sexy and it’s sad that these poor kids growing up think they have to live up to that. If I didn’t see it for myself in society today, I would brush this article off as useless ranting but it’s true. Take a look around at our youth. I was also thinking about how it doesn’t just happen for women. There is a whole generation of men in their 20’s getting “shit faced” because they feel that this is some right of passage at that age.. It ruins lives, and again I’ve seen it, so why isn’t more being done to curb the enormous power of poor media on our younger generations? Oh right, because there are a bunch of losers at the top, and I’m pretty sure there are many women also to blame. Very important article Charlotte Church. Thank you.


    Reply
    1. DistanceLeft

      Sadly gone, are the days of Bette Davis & Hepburn are gone, some people from my generation are aware, but we’re a dwindling minority. Some of also get the difference between Art and Products, and all the machinations.


      Reply
  72. DistanceLeft

    I can’t be the only person who just thinks she wrote a good piece, delivered it well, and made some good points, that need serious, honest, factual and calm discussion can I?
    And who isn’t prepared to turn it into a slagging match, which basically misses the point frankly.


    Reply
  73. Natasha P

    All the hate towards Charlotte Church is a bit ridiculous! She admits that she wore exposing outfits and released music she was not proud of… so what? Do her mistakes exclude her from taking a new direction? Anyone who has actually listened to Charlotte’s new music will see that she is striving to be taken serious as an artist now. As an almost 30-year-old woman with two children her perspective in life has changed and she is speaking out against problems she see’s in the industry at an event she was invited to speak at. People should be able to debate the message without attacking the messenger! People make mistakes, they change their minds. It’s part of being human. – End of Rant -


    Reply
  74. -

    I wasn’t allowed to watch music video’s growing up. I don’t let my children watch them either. I’m so very glad I missed out on all that rubbish!! Music is not supposed to be about nudity and sex! It’s such a shame.


    Reply
  75. A dude

    I completely agree with Charlotte Church’s point here. However, the aggressiveness of some of today “feminists” is extremely disheartening to see. From this thread alone, it appears that feminist are forcing there beliefs on society. You can’t say that “all women DO NOT want to be these sexbots and sexual objects” cuz that simply is not true (say what you want, but this statement holds validity). Needless to say, not all women think alike. You are entitled to your own beliefs however, by forcing your beliefs upon both men and women you are simply making yourselves the enemies of society and thereby losing credibility. I DO believe that women deserve to be equals however, the means at which this is happening is extremely unbearable to see.


    Reply
    1. A dude

      also to add, it appears that feminists are putting down these women who do want to be these sexbots and sex. Which in return is even worse and makes you all look even less credible


      Reply
  76. jdrch

    I have a few issues with this:
    1) Pop music is all about base instinct. Nothing more, nothing less. It will always be shallow & physical. Intelligent art has never been as popular as lowest common denominator fare, and it never will be because the LCD content is familiar to more people.

    2) Charlotte is acting as if female pop stars are the only ones forced to hypersexualize themselves. That’s not even remotely true. Male pop stars appear topless on stage all the time, something female performers don’t have to do. The “Jay-Z in a bikini thong” comparison is invalid because very little of the mainstream audience considers that sexy attire for a male. If you’re a pop star, you’re a sex symbol regardless of your gender.

    3) Nicki Minaj is a hilariously bad example, considering her garish explicit fashion and the fact that she got butt implants (no, really). I’m mean, c’mon.

    4) Pop music isn’t the only thing out there to listen to. Plenty of artists – e.g. Kelly Clarkson – have jumped off the pop train after finding it too confining. Complaining that you have to be a hypersexualized icon to be a pop star is like complaining you have to be tall to be in the NBA. Well, duh. But just as non-athletes find other ways to have productive lives, non-pop artists find other ways to have successful careers.


    Reply
  77. ArtsyMarci

    This article has affirmed what I am so determined about…to model and stand for autonomy. I have seen how media influences the masses and will continue to speak against over-sexualization of girls and women. Thank you Charlotte Church for making a statement for empowerment!


    Reply
  78. JR

    Fuck Feminism, Fuck Masculinism. I’m for Humanism. We are all human and such treat each other like such.


    Reply
    1. JR

      should*


      Reply
  79. Gina S.

    Gals, we are living in the year 2013, in case you haven’t checked. Women haven’t learned a thing. Prostitute themselves in so many ways, thinking this is the way to freedom, acceptance, value & happiness. You are delusional. Stop thinking with your sex organs. Your setting a piss poor example to all children, male & female. Throughout history, women have screwed themselves & they constantly complain that someone has done it to them. Especially the opposite sex. Men I repeat have not done it to you. Grow up. Take responsibility for yourselves.There are a few mature women out there. Learn from them. Honor them. My mother was one of them & she was born in 1911. She honored herself, & my father respected her for it. She was good at everything she did because she didn’t do anything she didn’t want to do. She had choices and you do too. When she passed away at the age of over 99yrs the church was packed because she made friends with young and old alike & not very many people can say they know someone whose funeral they attended & the church was packed with friends & relatives. She was a happy lady,.gave unconditionally, never worried about what others thought, always knowing that her God was the source of her supply.
    We all have it in us to feel good about ourselves, be successful & happy.


    Reply
    1. RG

      Oh my God at last the one person who has it right. Seriously, Thanks Gina this stuff drives me crazy and I was just yelling what you were saying at my computer screen. EVERYONE, Gina is 100 percent correct and its a breath of fresh air to read.


      Reply
  80. Lyndsey

    You don’t have to be a feminist to agree with her viewpoint. I am not a feminist; I actually think feminism, while it has gained some ground for women, has sold us short massively in essential areas of life happiness: such as the domestic one. I am actually a traditionalist, and agree with men being considerate and “gentlemanly” towards women. However, I agree wholeheartedly with Charlotte’s views of the music industry. Unfortunately many female musicians don’t just let their talent do the talking. So we need more of Annie Lennox, Sheryl Crow, Carrie Underwood (and Adele too- I like her). And less of Jennifer Lopez: actually she’s quite poor as an artist: see some of her early stuff before she started gyrating: it tells you all you need to know.


    Reply
  81. Lauren

    Let me guess….

    • I’m sick of feminists complaining
    • This is censorship. Everything is censorship. Censorship is the worst. Ah!
    • My kids defy all science that says the world around them influences how they think and grow up.
    • Blame the parents. Let me watch my TV.
    • I can say what I want!
    • As a woman I…
    • Charlotte Church is ugly

    … yep. All here. Good job everyone.


    Reply
    1. Jay

      You forgot “I’ll critique everyone else from my ivory tower.”

      NOW: “All here.”


      Reply
  82. Fayke

    I know of NO artist who wishes to be considered “good” merely for their physical attributes/apearance and NOT THAT OF THEIR WORK…DUMB COCKS MORE LIKE…


    Reply
  83. Mamacitacooke

    When our focus is on ourselves, when we live life in order to gratify every single desire that we have, in our own way, for our own aggrandisement, believing that we have a ‘right’ to do this, we may well leave a trail of hurt people behind us. We find ourselves envying those who are richer, more successful, have more houses, have everything, in fact that we feel we are entitled to, but for a little luck. Most of us will be disappointed and grow cynical and bitter about ‘them’ having more than ‘me’. And then, someone comes along, like Nelson Mandela and we know we are witnessing an extraordinary life. Extraordinary world wide power came to him, following dire torture and suffering for 27 years. The power of his life will endure way beyond his death. He stands as a testimony to all that is so fantastic about being human. It’s entirely possible to take the ‘model’ of his life and apply it to our own. Each of us, no matter what gender, colour or creed, should employ all of our resources to make a difference in our field of work and to open exciting doors of opportunity for the next generation. I want to leave things in better shape than I found them, don’t you? We become poverty stricken, as a society, when we focus merely on ‘me’. Ironic really that much of the discussions above revolve around individual/mutual masturbation. There is just so much more to life than self gratification don’t you think?


    Reply
  84. A Man

    As a man, I fully support her comments. The sexism inherent in the music industry seems to grow with every passing year, with only a handful of female artists saying “nope, I’m gonna do what I want. Some of it you might find sexy, so of it you won’t. It’s my choice”. Younger and younger female artists are expected to sell their bodies, their sexuality, to earn money. That’s prostitution. A woman should not have to use her body to sell her records, since when was the quality of a song determined by the shape of the singers body or how few clothes they are willing to wear?


    Reply
  85. Penny Dove

    I feel blessed to grow up in a time were women did not have to show there stuff before they showed their talent for singing. Joan Jet, Carly Simon, Anne Lennox to name just a few. They have actual talent and did not have to come out half dressed to draw a crowd. I feel that the ones with real talent do not have to go to these lengths to put their music out there. I see some of these younger women especially the Disney young ladies who did show some promise have gone in the wrong direction in there careers. Salina Gomez is a great example of someone who did not have to stoop to the lower levels.. I loved her singing voice and she was a very talented actress as well. I hope that all these young women will smarten up and get it right in the near future. They need to stop letting their pimps, oops I mean talent agents call the shots.


    Reply
  86. J Ess

    Please stop running this “piece” to stir everyone into a frenzy. Guys like scantily clad women, women like the same of firefighter men.

    Signed,
    Still grateful for the “Papa Don’t Preach” video from the 80’s


    Reply
  87. Ron Jeremy

    Sex sells….


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  88. true north

    Does not matter anyway because almost everyone who posted here is as much as a slut as those in the music industry …most north american s are fukd and sick minded so enjoy your music from hell and raise your kids with out God and maybe your kids can be just like Miley :) yayyy!

    This article was bang on and any RESPECTFUL clean human being would know that…the rest are just lost souls


    Reply
  89. Kara

    Ok…so change of subject….when is charlotte church going to make another opera cd because i have been waiting so long to hear her beautiful voice again. I love listening to her because she is innocent and has a gorgeous voice. I don’t buy any music where they have started to sexualize themselves. I have the younger miley cyrus cds because she was innocent back then now i wouldn’t buy or listen to anything she has to say.


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  90. Anon

    A lot of what has been said is slightly beside the point. Not only women are marketing their sexuality. Male musicians, too, promote their music by acting seductive and, yes, sexual, and there’s nothing wrong with it. A certain kind of music is sexy in itself. But why is female sexuality on display considered cheap while demonstrative male sexuality (Michael Jackson’s crotch grabbing, boy group participants dancing shirtless) is considered strong? Not the flesh, not the sex is wrong but society’s attitude towards it is gender-biased. Idealism can be displayed, intelligence, comedic talent – why not sexuality?


    Reply
  91. OpenYourEyes

    MK Ultra experiments (celebrities). Before you think you know everything, get a little perspective.


    Reply
  92. jd

    I hoped for a different article. There is much to complain about in the music industry. But this sounds like someone complaining that they can’t drive a Rolls, because they are unwilling to be the SOB-type who generally gets that kind of CEO money.
    Charlotte – If you don’t like the way pop treats women – you’re in the wrong segment! Your anger is understandable – it’s not a pretty business, for men or women. ANY kind of music. (typically, everyone makes money – except the artist)
    One problem – she seems to focus on pop music. It’s like complaining that your milkshake diet isn’t working for you. And complaining about Miley, who is doing anything she can to find a career beyond Disney, is also kind of pointless. I’ve never heard her sing, but don’t blame her for her outlandish moves. She’s probably not that talented, and needs the publicity. Or, she needs to be noticed, for her songs to sell? It’s the old ‘casting couch’, presented on stage or in the press.
    It will be interesting to see the direction Lorde’s career goes. It’s easy to sing a song about the evils of money and fame when you don’t have it. I hope she can hold on to her ideals. Money and fame are VERY corrupting! Pop music is FAR off my radar, but Royals made it to my ipod! (thanks again, NPR!)
    You want empowered women, or women who have negated most of the industry’s misogynistic ways? Get beyond the temporary buzz of pop. Gillian Welch and Alison Krauss surely have issues, being a woman in the industry, but the get past it. No one seemed to get Emmylou Harris to tart up her act much. (and country music doesn’t treat women much better than pop). You don’t think the DIxie Chicks were pressured to be more sexy and mainstream? There are so many women out there, living off their music, that you’ve likely never heard of. But you only mention pop-tarts in your speech. Women willing to whore it up for fame and cash.
    But most of this music doesn’t pay that well. Surely not like pop! But you can market yourself, write your own music, be yourself – and let the market decide. That smaller, more loyal segment. Charlotte seems to have talent, tho I’ve never noticed her much. Not my style. She can probably have any career she wishes. But the higher the pay, the higher the profile – the less of ‘you’ you may be able to present.
    Her speech is one that could be about female doctors, saleswomen, policewomen – any in a male-centric industry. Does Charlotte have to tart herself up? No. But maybe she does to make it to the big venues. I don’t make the rules, but I do rule my wallet. I don’t buy tickets for shows like that. I like smaller, intimate shows. But I’ll bet Charlotte has a mansion, and couldn’t give it up for that kind of life.


    Reply
  93. Jon Doeringer

    I hoped for a different article. There is much to complain about in the music industry. But this sounds like someone complaining that they can’t drive a Rolls, because they are unwilling to be the SOB-type who generally gets that kind of CEO money.
    Charlotte – If you don’t like the way pop treats women – you’re in the wrong segment! Your anger is understandable – it’s not a pretty business, for men or women. ANY kind of music. (typically, everyone makes money – except the artist)
    One problem – she seems to focus on pop music. It’s like complaining that your milkshake diet isn’t working for you. And complaining about Miley, who is doing anything she can to find a career beyond Disney, is also kind of pointless. I’ve never heard her sing, but don’t blame her for her outlandish moves. She’s probably not that talented, and needs the publicity. Or, she needs to be noticed, for her songs to sell? It’s the old ‘casting couch’, presented on stage or in the press.
    It will be interesting to see the direction Lorde’s career goes. It’s easy to sing a song about the evils of money and fame when you don’t have it. I hope she can hold on to her ideals. Money and fame are VERY corrupting! Pop music is FAR off my radar, but Royals made it to my ipod! (thanks again, NPR!)
    You want empowered women, or women who have negated most of the industry’s misogynistic ways? Get beyond the temporary buzz of pop. Gillian Welch and Alison Krauss surely have issues, being a woman in the industry, but the get past it. No one seemed to get Emmylou Harris to tart up her act much. (and country music doesn’t treat women much better than pop). You don’t think the DIxie Chicks were pressured to be more sexy and mainstream? There are so many women out there, living off their music, that you’ve likely never heard of. But you only mention pop-tarts in your speech. Women willing to whore it up for fame and cash.
    But most of this music doesn’t pay that well. Surely not like pop! But you can market yourself, write your own music, be yourself – and let the market decide. That smaller, more loyal segment. Charlotte seems to have talent, tho I’ve never noticed her much. Not my style. She can probably have any career she wishes. But the higher the pay, the higher the profile – the less of ‘you’ you may be able to present.
    Her speech is one that could be about female doctors, saleswomen, policewomen – any in a male-centric industry. Does Charlotte have to tart herself up? No. But maybe she does to make it to the big venues. I don’t make the rules, but I do rule my wallet. I don’t buy tickets for shows like that. I like smaller, intimate shows. But I’ll bet Charlotte has a mansion, and couldn’t give it up for that kind of life.


    Reply
  94. 21sy century

    I am a man and a feminist (and straight & married-cue sound of Daily Mail reader heads exploding). Only someone with their head in the clouds or in mastabatory self-denial could deny the reality of the objectification of women in popular culture. We all know it, yet there it still is. We hear very few complaints from within the music industry as all performers grasp for as many dollars as possible before they sag. Hopefully this will be a stepping stone on the road to righting the wrongs-though I have no doubts about the length of the road. Good on you Charlotte, let this snowball roll and pick up speed.


    Reply
  95. Gary

    Amazing. She says all that while creating a picture which has been clearly enhanced to make her look pretty. Nice to stay on message.


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  96. Chandy

    I find myself disappointed with all the comparisons made to previous artists…who were no doubt put in the same situation as Church (being told by those with the power and money to be more sexy). This lecture should have offered more in the realm of how to change those who run these companies, not complain about those who came before. I dislike lectures where there is no original solution offered, but here she ends just by saying I agree with another more famous artist that videos should be rated? Meh.


    Reply
  97. Justafella

    I’m a 32 year old man and in many ways, very stubborn and judgemental. My parents were extremely prudish as I grew up, which hasn’t helped me to cope with what the world “has become” – at least, in my opinion. I’m with Charlotte Church on this one. The women I grew up listening to (Whitney Houston, early Mariah Carey etc.) didn’t whore around in their music videos. Madonna was the “objectionable” one, but she wasn’t the rule, unlike today. I consider the 70s, 80s and early 90s to be a golden era of Pop. A lot of the music was great… particularly the Rock from the 70s and the Adult Contemporary stuff from the 80s and 90s. Music today SUCKS. It’s as though some genius said to all of the aspiring young male singers out there “You need to sound like Stevie Wonder” and to all of the young female singers “You need to sound like Mariah Carey”. “RnB is what we need, more RnB. Then Dance music. 4 bass drum beats per bar, until the end of time. Yeah, that sounds exciting”.

    Music is not about the music anymore and is purely about the show these days (thanks Pink, for turning live shows into a Circus). Rihanna sounds like she has a 2nd grade reading level and possibly some brain damage too – and her lyrics sound like something a bunch of teenage boys would talk about at the back of the bus. Ke$ha is exactly the same. Those two alone will turn this young generation into tree-sloths.

    Whenever I bring this up online, I’m called a wowser. What these people don’t understand, is that children should be riding bicycles and playing cricket/basketball/baseball (or even video games), not learning how to back up on each other and simulate or have sex. They don’t need their heads filled with adult problems. Pink – shutup and stop whingeing about men. Rihanna – you suck, completely. Ke$ha – go back to school and learn how to speak English. Beyonce – I don’t understand why people think you’re the second coming of Christ… You’re a carbon copy of your predecessors. Lady Gaga – your music is crap, sorry. Gossling – words cannot express how much I HATE the sound of you and everybody like you. Miley Cyrus – you’re a young fool and I hope you regret it. To all the rappers – just shut the fuck up. To the folkies – stop trying to sound Irish; you just sound like you have a peanut allergy and you’ve eaten a peanut butter sandwich. Boy bands – you sound like a whiney, crying bunch of girls. I don’t even know who’s who in the industry when it comes to male performers now, because they all sound the fuckin’ same = SHIT. GIRLY. WHINGEING. CRYING. VOCAL GYMNASTICS. The muaic industry needs a reformation. We need something other than folk bullshit, dance, RnB, shitty Rock and fuckin’ Hip hop.


    Reply
    1. Derek 'Ger' Cooke

      Well said sir but I must take issue with the unnecessary slandering of the humble tree-sloth’s good name.


      Reply
  98. Persona

    This is a certain segment of the “industry” that targets a certain demographic. There are plenty of women who make a living from music without resorting to this tactic. Those who resort to this tactic do so of their own choice. It is unfortunate, but porn will always sell — whether masked in music or not.

    Support the artists you admire who go against the grain. If you don’t like the sexual nature of the industry beast, don’t buy or support those who sell out to it.


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  99. klasjd

    stop showing your tits if you dont want people to sell your tits


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    1. Anonymous

      Your logic fails in that you assume it’s a free choice.


      Reply
  100. Anonymous

    Adele says it all.


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  101. Sarawk

    I’ve read several of these comments and just… wow. I’m actually excited that you’ll all die eventually. Hopefully from cancer.


    Reply
    1. Justafella

      How old are you? 13? Just discovered that you like cruel and offensive humour did we?


      Reply
  102. Harpgrrl

    So-what are you doing about it?
    In the 90’s the exact same points were made at a class I took at John Hopkins.
    Writing about the problem “women in the music industry” is very nice and all…..but at the end of the essay I didn’t see any tangible points, suggestions or actual action to change women’s status.

    I am a working musician in NYC and I do really well without ever doing any of the crap you mention. And I help young women get the musicianship they need to express themselves and have a musician life.


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  103. Gary

    Let’s face it. She’s just annoyed because she showed her goods and didn’t make as much money as she wanted. Now she is hitting out like a child. She had a lovely voice, but decided to try and make easy money by showing some skin. Nothing forced her to do that. She chose to do that because she thought she would earn a fortune. If she did earn a fortune she wouldn’t be complaining and making speeches. That is the reality of the industry. Males have to strip down too. How many boy bands or rap artists have to show their six packs to the world? You don’t see them complaining that they were forced to become sex objects to thousands of screaming girls.


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  104. feminists are sexists as well

    i honestly don’t understand feminists. and artists that you mentioned (except miley, rihanna, and britney) are unknown to me. and you’re still wondering why they’re selling sex on their videos? BESIDES IT’S BEEN LIKE THIS SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME. nothing is gonna change, not now, not ever. women always have to prove to society and themselves that they are desired by men (ergo vanity, fashion/makeup obsession, dieting etc) it will always be the ultimate gauge of worth for women. plus women are weak, both physically and emotionally. that’s why i prefer working with gay guys rather than women, because atleast theyre firm and reliable. anyway not picking a fight, just my opinion. actually 85% of men out there


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  105. ThePosieParker

    I’m always surprised by the number of people seemingly worried about equality, fearful of not being able to watch a woman being objectified, sexually available and vulnerable. What do we lose if we don’t objectify women? What power do men lose? And conversely what is gained? If we don’t watch women stick their arses in our faces and act like they’re lining up to fluff the next ego will it eventually lead to more women in the board room? Address the gender pay gap? Stop cat calling by morons in white vans? I’m not sure. I really think it’s worth a try.

    Perhaps if the sexualisation and pornification of society was gender neutral we’d have less to complain about it from a feminist viewpoint, it could just be wrong. But gender is at play here. Justin Timberlake doesn’t present his member or arse cheeks to sell records, does he?


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  106. Gosunkugi

    A lot of the piece I agree with but CC is ignoring a few key factors I feel. 1) Who are the videos marketed towards? If a female artist releases a titillating or sexually provocative video that’s aimed at her female followers, the work can take on an entirely different context. 2) Who’s actually watching it? Sometimes a female fronted video aimed at a teenage girl can backfire or have unintended consequences and it becomes fodder for teenage boys. That’s never an easy thing to escape but when making the video it’s entirely up to the artist and how they want to be perceived. If the message is deliberately aimed at a particular demographic however, females in this case, can the artist be held responsible for how it’s received? 3) Just how much control are the artists having when making it. It’s entirely reasonable to assume there are female performers working with female directors and writers, producers and publicists who don’t have an exploitative agenda but who still produce sexually charged material. They feel they have a measure of control and power in doing it Is that wrong? Bjork appears topless and she’s awesome because it was Bjork’s idea? 4) Did we all blank out the years of music videos where boybands were regularly featured with their shirts off, abs all oiled up, crooning sex themed lyrics at the camera? Charlotte talks about the absurdity of Jay-Z in skimpy underwear while ignoring bands who were designed with just that image in mind, aimed at teenage girls. What is that if not crass exploitation? Please don’t pretend female musicians are the only ones being hurt here.

    If a video does indeed fit the criteria stated in CC’s speech – made by men, for men, full of bikini clad girls thrusting at the camera – then sure, that’s a fine cause to rally against, otherwise with cases that aren’t so cut and dried it’s necessary to look at each video in turn and decide, rather than lump them all under one banner of disgust and shame.


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  107. Kerry

    if u dont like it , then dont do it period then u have nothin to complain about, this applies to all aspects of life.


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  108. Gareth Edwards

    DURAN DURAN – ‘Girls on film’, song and video. Discuss.


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  109. Anonymous

    In my personal opinion, pop music has little to no musical merit. That would be why the ladies sell themselves sexually. I hate county music too, but those women seem to use less sex to sell. Granted, they play the cheated on and wronged part. Or they confuse being strong with being a psycho and vandalizing property. unfortunately, image is what sells music because that’s what society cares about or at the very least, it’s what record companies care about. But my words shouldn’t mean anything to anyone, I’m just a Rock and Metal loving female. I’m not very receptive to many other music styles. And I can accept that.


    Reply
  110. Flo

    It’svery simple really:

    For a man to have any power. You need to work hard, talk well, dress well, secure a good job, etc

    Woman could take the same path. But they have another option. Instead of doing the above mentioned, they have the option to simply take their clothes of. and for doing this they will recieve the same,if not more power.

    Think about it: Man wants to get into an exclusive dance club…. MUST…… Dress well, Bring a good looking lady, Have a good job (enough money) etc etc
    Woman wants to get into the same club….Al she has to do is dress sexy.

    Nobody thinks this is unfair to men!

    The reality is: most (99.9%) woman just tend to take the easy way all the time :) and while they are young they se absolutely no problem with it. It’s only when they get older, and the trick of being sexy slowly stops working, that they suddenly find that it’s all soooooo unfair…..

    Yeah…right…

    It’s not. :)


    Reply
    1. Gosunkugi

      I see where you’re coming from but it depends on your definition of power. Power in the boardroom? The film industry? Sports? Or the music industry? I’m assuming you mean power in general, as in “Empowerment” or the feeling of having power over someone else, in which case I have to disagree with you. Granted there have been women throughout history who have used their sexuality to gain said power, but I’ll wager many, many more got there through sheer hard work. You’ll find that those women that do choose the easy route aren’t fooling anybody except themselves, if you’d be kind enough to provide an example of the women you mean (short of actual pornographic actresses the idea that movie stars can flash some T&A and become megastars is a relatively modern idea and in no way indicative of power, if Sharon Stone’s career is any indication anyway). I also raise the question of which clubs you visit that have a door policy requiring a high income and a good looking girl to get in. Experience tells me that the only requirement is a dress code, in which case dressing hot applies to both sexes.


      Reply
  111. Dave Dederer

    As a father of two daughters, I think about this stuff a lot.

    I wouldn’t encourage either of them to go into show business. Show business is about looking good. Period. Being a popular musical artist (regardless of genre) means you’re in show business, BTW, no matter how genuine and authentic your art may be.

    I was looking at some old photos of my band recently and also of some photos of our contemporaries from Seattle from the late 80s through the early 90s.

    All male bands.

    I’m not the handsomest guy around but looking through the photos of my band and all of these other guys when we were in our late teens to early 30s, my overwhelming impression is that everyone was…cute…good looking…sexy…or otherwise physically attractive. Kurt Cobain was a very good-looking guy. Likewise, Ed Vedder is a handsome man, as are the other fellas in PJ. Chris Cornell is perhaps the most strikingly good-looking adult male human being I have ever met.

    Go to fan sites for bands like G N’ R. You will find 10s of thousands of posts by women on how hot Slash and Duff and Izzy are.

    So, while I want the best for my daughters and sympathize with Charlotte Church’s struggles, the reality is that people are more willing to pay money to see and/or buy products from good-looking people, and an entertainer’s willingness to accentuate those looks and one’s attractiveness is a rational response to that reality.


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  112. Seriously?

    The problem isn’t men or women. The problem is society as a whole that puts sexuality out there as an advertising scheme and eats it up. Performers of every area (sports, music, movies) are all given the impression that in order to be successful they have to sell themselves and what sells the most? That’s right people, sex. Yes, some men are pigs. Yes, some women are slutty. But as a society we condone this behavior and even encourage it at a young age. Even looking through the comments on here you can see examples of stereotypical behavior. Demeaning men doesn’t empower you as a woman just as demeaning women doesn’t make you more of a man. Everyone here can keep blaming the other sex but it is a joint effort. The music industry is a business and their goal is to make money, period. If they don’t believe objectifying their artists will make them money, they will change. Change the way you view each other and maybe something good can actually come out of what she was trying to say.

    P.S. To Mr. “make me a sammich”, go make your own f*cking sandwhich.

    Thank you.


    Reply
  113. Natanz Loetawan

    A lot of topics here, since the title is How Women Are Routinely Demoralized by the Music Industry my thoughts on that:

    1 People prefer physically attractive people. Since that’s the truth, you can’t blame companies for using this info (or yourself for using make-up or brushing your hair, trying to get a 6 pack etc).

    2 demoralize = cause someone to lose confidence or hope
    The female musicians lose confidence/hope in what? She doesn’t address this at all. I think she meant something like
    demean = cause a severe loss in the dignity of and respect for someone or something

    3 IMO men are also often represented in sexist/stereotypical ways: showing off six pack, sexy dances, “being manly”, etc. At least from a male perspective it’s obvious that this kind of stuff happens more in women’s MVs.

    4 I think the issue lies with music companies that have (all the) power. If you disagree with a concept, they’ll easily find someone else who also wants to become rich and famous (there’s a lot you can do with millions!). It’s easy to find someone who can sell and wants to work with a music company! Also I believe artists are more important than their music for sales. Just the fact that someone famous is selling something means people will buy it (As long as their is a profit to be made a music company is wise to keep the artist. Look at the aggressive Justin Bieber, financially it’s wise for the company to keep him around).

    Unless you’re not famous yet, then obviously there should be some quality to your music.

    5 Then she mentioned:

    “The culture of demeaning women in pop music is so ingrained as to become routine, from the way we are dealt with by management and labels, to the way we are presented the public.”

    Unfortunately she didn’t give any specific examples about the routine, and how management treats female musicians.

    6 Sexy MV does not equal “a woman is being demeaned”. How much % of sexy MVs are also demeaning? That’s an important figure.


    Reply
  114. Alix

    When reading previous comments I see it enraged a lot of sexists, wich means Church has hit a nerve. Good one!


    Reply
  115. Truth Time

    I get the point, but the reality is, is that Church is just scratching the surface. What she’s talking about from a high level perspective is what we call marketing. It happens with male artists too. Many artists are not in control of their own image, but they are the artists who seemingly get the spotlight time and time again. That’s what you call selling out. it’s not a new concept, it’s you putting your image control in the hands of other people, letting them write songs for you, not giving a s**t about what the song is about as long as you can manipulate the minds of the idiots we call John and Jane Q Public and have them go buy your single online and see you on tour. There aren’t many artists out there we know about with much longevity and sustenance that are coming onto the scene these days because the format that works is pump and dump. Pump an artist in someone’s face so much that they’re only aware of a small percentage of artists and they only know the small percentage of songs they think they should buy… when sales slow down the labels dump them. Mark my words that Gaga is over, her newest record sales tanked compared to expectations and she even alluded to the fact that her career was over on SNL. She’s not dumb, she gets it, she’s done. That’s why the smart ones use their 15 minutes of fame to make as much money possible before they’re pushed aside for their replicate to come in and take their place. Of course what I’m alluding to is the concept of post-modernism in general. Recycling and rehashing old ideas and pushing it as new is something we’ve been doing since Andy Warhol came onto the scene and used nostalgia to sell paintings and convince people he was a visionary… yes that lime green cambells soup can is so original.. it’s not. But morons keep buying it, and that’s fine. Just accept that’s the world you live in. Marketing people on the top use what’s worked before. New ideas don’t exist because new ideas are not taught in business classes. Focus groups, on the other hand, are. Focus groups are made up of the same idiots that like all of the crap they see and hear time and time again, there are anomalies and people who want to see cool, new original ideas, but when you get a good sample size you realize the 80/20 rule is true. 80% will want more of the same because they truly have no opinion, they only know what’s being shoved down their throat. This leads to the snake eating it’s own tail image. You just keep pumping out the same stuff and marketing it as new (using the same demoralizing women techniques Church is talking about, or the same gangsta imagery for rappers, or the same conservative yet edgy imagery for lame rock bands like Imagine Dragons/Snow Patrol/OneRepublic/1975.. oddly all Interscope bands, or is it?) and you don’t break any new ground, you just keep going around in the circle.

    That’s what it is, deal wif’ it bitches.


    Reply
  116. Larry Baldwin

    I have been a Rock-Blues guitarist in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S. for about 45 years and I have seen a lot, much of it in person. I played strip joints where most of the women were hookers and took their “Johns” out side and did whatever in the back seat of the guys car. This was in the late 60’s and early 70’s. The frightening part, or so we thought was eventually all this debauchery would just come indoors and be done over in the corner like some private parties I’ve known of. You people in the UK, do you remember Shirley Bassey and what she dressed like in the early 60’s at least she could sing. AS we all know sex sells!! It always has and always will, in one way or another. I don’t know if Charlotte Church will see this, but if she does I would tell her this. Nobody put a gun to her head. She can say that she was deceived all she wants to, but even at a tender of twenty or so, she knew what she was doing. You can’t tell me that there wasn’t someone somewhere that didn’t tell that what she was doing could damage to her career and more importantly damage her well being. Charlotte, if you don’t like the way things are then change to a different type of music and they are out there. Christina, Brittany, Jennifer,(big time on that one), and Rihanna are, in my opinion nothing more than high priced hookers prostituting themselves for the money the fame and the power. Let’s not forget the biggest one of them all. Madonna. If she hadn’t hitch hiked completely butt naked and everything else she did she wouldn’t have a career. She is a mediocre singer, actor and dancer. She also proved the well know saying: “any publicity is good, bad publicity is great.” In closing I will say that western society is steadily sinking and has been for decades. If Charlotte Church wants to do some good about all of this,then just shut up and change musical venues.


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  117. Alyson Todd

    Actually, guys have archetypes too. Guys either sing about bitches are hot, bitch hurt me or I know you want me bitch. Girls get about the same thing. Women do show less clothing, that’s true, but that might even be because guys are not “hot” in the same way if they’re wearing say a thong or something. Male and female sexuality from a purely physical standpoint often is very different as much as we try to deny it. A guy would not look hot to a huge majority of women wearing a thong and twirling around a pole. In fact, take one look at Kpop, both males and females are extremely sexualized, you could even say the guys HAVE to have sex appeal and show some skin to even make it at all and the ironic thing is that it’s hot in that culture to look more feminine then masculine. So, guys have to have fantastic bodies, androgynous or a little bit masculine faces, decent voices and usually be able to dance or at least look alluring and powerful.

    Let’s get down to the nitty-gritty of what makes a male hot and a female hot to the general populace. Whether this is culturally based or influenced by (meaning, we find that “hot” because we feel we’re supposed to or it’s in our respective cultures to be desirable) or if it is in fact instinct, such as boobs and/or legs are almost universally the thing that is attractive on females in nearly every culture, it just varies on what level is acceptable to market and view on a daily basis. And on guys, well, MOST women will admit that a guy who is in shape with nice abs, arms, chest and looks like he takes at least some care of his appearance is hot. Women in their liking of guys (and I would suspect gay/bi men have the same phenomenon in what they find hot) are for whatever reason, more varied in what they find attractive. Like South Korea as I mentioned with Kpop. There is it desirable for the guy to look at least a little androgynous mostly because really structured or “masculine faces” are just not really in their DNA strain as asians in comparison to super strong jaw lines and well defined noses that many Caucasians tend to have. So, in the west, the more common racial structure is more desirable, which is the more “manly” one. As for myself, even if I was raised to like one thing more then then other, I tend to like the more androgynous look on my guys, but I don’t mind the masculine either, but that could be for a variety of reasons, including my sexuality and that I didn’t have a father figure in my life that would have tied me down to what I would like (Read more on Freud to find out what I’m talking about, dude maybe a little wack, but holy hell, I’ve seen this particular instance of attraction in people towards their partners more times then I can count.) In short, it’s much easier to sell the color blue (boobs, butts, legs and pretty faces) then it is to figure out if the populace wants to see orange or purple. If the industry is about money, then you simply won’t see a change. To me, I don’t care, so long as what’s sexual for anyone watching, being male or female is out there for

    I think this comes more from the fear that humans are very sexual beings. It’s pretty much the other thing we think about after and pretty much in this order, water, food, sleep, shelter then sex. In decreasing order of what you can take the longest to live with out. I’m not saying we’re not more then this, but I think people underestimate instincts in humans and just how much influence they have over us. For the first time in history too we’re really questioning what’s right and what’s not and if we’re more then just the main directive to survive and have babies. Sex is a big thing for us, it’s why it sells. I feel since you can’t censor or take away the sexual aspect then just have both sides do it. Which is where I think Kpop and some other genres have it right. If one group is forced to be in shape, alluring and sexualized, so should the other. And yes, I know it’s a small minority that’s doing this, but still. Western music is becoming more like this too. Male artists that make it the best either sing about something that hits on a sexual core for both genders or they look attractive to both, either because the guys watching want to be that guy, or are sexually attracted. Justin Timberlake is in shape, he looks groomed and he looks manly but not too much. Where areas guys that obviously don’t give a damn don’t make it, unless they sing about how hot dis bitch is and how he wants to bang her, which most guys can relate to, IE nearly every rap song with really fat guys singing about how hot they are at the club or every rockstar who looks like crap and sings about hot girls.

    Overall, this will not change, because it’s not about what’s acceptable, it’s about what sells. And sex sells, yes, even to straight females who don’t personally care to see some chicks tits, it doesn’t matter because they’re all too busy bitching about who’s a slut and who’s a prude. Nothing will change until people can decide on what’s truly acceptable and what’s not. And they won’t because that’s opinion. So unless you can find a scientifically quantifiable way to see what culture or aspect of revealing sexuality at certain ages and levels is most damaging or actually healthy, you will never get an answer and it would take a lot of statistics and experimentation to figure out who has it right, or if everyone has it wrong, but who’s closest or rather the least damaging on the human psyche and how we perceive males and females.


    Reply
  118. Sebastian Walsh

    I found myself reading this, then checking out the comments, i’d like to share something i’ve written. The world is set in stone and yes I hate it. My best friend is a girl and the kindest soul I know, As well as many other girls and equally guys, my point is that regardless of this ‘product placement’ which it is, female figure is used more whilst the male figure is also used but I’ve seen women comment on sexy video’s in which girls are just used to sell it, The point of this all is that society and its owners would not change anything, to let female and male come to a equal understanding completely..something i think i have with everyone. I wrote this quote below and it will hopefully express the type of thoughts, feelings, care we should show each other, rather than snapping stereotypical attacks at each other.

    Get on with your lives, if you want to fall to crap telly and music do so, I choose not to, i choose companionship with friends and family and new meetings of people in experiences that bread good positive life’s.

    “The hands of many true souls can build whatever they want. Each hand holding the next, freely giving until happiness..success etc has bred..to whatever you seek or desire at that time.

    This kind of happiness and maybe some success comes about from time to time, done so by holding onto creativity, chance encounters, friendships, some synchronicity and of course you people.

    We all think of imagined futures whilst in our present life..

    These imagined futures can and will always so easily become our present, as beautifully imagined and more… more than the future you originally had in mind, before you had previously imagined it at that time? >'< .

    This then leaves only your past..your memories for last, which becomes the bestest thing… the images of times had, the smells, the feelings, loved ones along side you and the most beautiful library of life experiences, that will never be lost so long as you shape your future for the good of yourself and others within your present life' – This is for you all!! " By Sebastian Walsh.


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  119. barry

    Porn is common on the internet… if this is so popular then why would you not use it to sell products..?

    we use health, fashion, moral obligation all to extract money. Why not sex.

    Nature nurture…?? if mum & dad are listening to and watching commercial tv & radio and if mum fancies a movie star and dad fancies a singer and are slightly obsessive.. Then you would expect the children ( who looks up to these adults ) to follow suit.. If you can only learn from what is around you then its the parents that need to make bold change so their influence over their children changes and so then does their attitude.

    Everyone blames it on the majors but actually. You want it so you buy it so …. they might as well sell it…

    If you wanted people belly flopping cakes then I am sure they would have that too… But you dont.!!!! You want to look up to someone just as your children do .. and 9 times out of 10 you look up to what you aspire to be which if you are 1 of the 80% of the population that sit down and watch tv every night its most likely going to be someone on television and therefore the vicious cycle continues…!!!

    Charity might start at home but so does blame most of the time..!!!! business is conditioned as well… they have to sell what we buy..!!!

    BUY SOMETHING DIFFERENT IF YOU DONT LIKE IT..!

    Sorry for the rant..


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  120. Daniel

    You are a sickening hypocrite. I only had to google your name to find this in the top results. Really? YOU’RE gonna preach to us? Yes, I read the article and know she says she was “pressured” but she also put the damn outfit on and pushed her boobs together to sell herself. Shameful.


    Reply
  121. Pingback: In defense of males in the music industry (an open letter to an open letter) | Tessa Makes Love

  122. JJ

    Charlotte Church is right, unfortunately in part from experience. She takes part of the responsibility on her own shoulders, maybe too much. But the bigger question is, Where were her managers, her record label etc? They should have been protecting her. Songs are powerful and move the emotions. Music videos can be far more emotive and encouraging (or damaging).

    Her manager should have been looking at her career over the long haul and not the quick return (Charlotte has a voice and talent that will last her for many decades). Her Manager should never have allowed the record company to put her in a position she is not comfortable with. Labels can threaten to drop artists and sometimes they do, but if the artist is truly talented, like I believe Charlotte Church is, then other labels will immediately pick up interest. Her manager could have put morality clauses in the contract – it is done all the time.

    i have seen and also done this myself. Stopped interviews or interjected myself when questions were asked that where outside the parameters initially agreed to and where the artist is uncomfortable. The record label is responsible to ensure the artist is treated in a way that is not detrimental to their career or their own state of mind. Yes people. labels and managers can convince and connive an artist into areas they shouldn’t go. They can use their financial muscle and other methods to ensure they get what they want, but often it is the label manager responsible for that artist that is doing this and those positions are often revolving doors. The only one left hung out to dry is the artist. So an artist needs a strong manager who will protect her. Now if the artist tells their manager to get lost and they are doing something the label suggests, against the managers advice then that is another matter. It does happen but not too often.

    For all those that say an artist should stand their ground, how many 17. 18 or 19 year olds have the business acumen and ability to be an amazing artist and also be an amazing manager of their own career, understanding contracts, business procedures, setting up their own touring, ticket sales, promotions, album packaging, marketing etc etc. They are often intimidated or in awe of the record label and the perception the label presents. The artist often believes they have to do what the label says because they are the experts. Many artists, twice that age need managers because of their creative ability and incredible talent. Artists are often referred to as right brained people and need a left brained person who is analytical and who loves the details. There are very few creative people that can be both.

    Thank you Charlotte for your comments. In my opinion your comments are true and correct.

    P.S. I am a 30 year (male) music industry veteran.


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  123. Pingback: #042: 6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person, I’m Charlotte Church

  124. David

    Church makes some wonderful points. Sex sells. All get rich. Millis Daddy did it first. However, truly it is about the music. Tits or a dick , the image will last for the moment connecting the passion to your body. The music will move your soul. In twenty years no one will ever remember who any of these people are. Pop. Pop tart. Where did arlow guthrie go?


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  125. Michael B

    I have admired you as an artist and I compliment you for your courage to air your opinions with which I whole heartily agree with.


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  126. Anon

    Not really relevant but I’d like to bring up the terms people are using nowadays to describe women…
    I was reading this article and the lines ” frequently abused on social media, being called slut, whore, and a catalog of other indignities that I am sure you’re are also sadly very familiar with.” caught my attention.

    Walking down the street I find it sad that people now just use such terms on one another without being aware of the connotations behind the words. I frequently overhear “b*tch”, “slut” hoe and other variants being slung back and forth in casual conversation. Even “nig*Ger” is used. I did ask some youth if they knew the meaning of the term, and they were not aware it was once a racist term in America. These impressionable kids are picking up such terms from listening to all these manufactured music…

    And no, I am pretty young myself, I just find it disgusting that my peers are using such terms so casually…


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  127. Kent

    Whats up! I just want to give an enormous thumbs up for the
    great info


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  128. Flor

    Why visitors still use to read news papers when in this technological world
    all is existing on net?


    Reply
  129. Storry

    There’s an old saying that goes something like this, “All Woman are sitting on a pot of Gold”, and for those who agree, fine but for others, one has to wonder if perhaps the smart ones ( woman) use what they have, be it brains and their sexuality to get to a point where they have the power they want and deserve and then, turn it around and DEMAND whatever it is they want and deserve. Basically laughing all the way to the bank and behind the backs of the so called Pigs Of the Industry. One can only hope.
    My mother use to say that is you are Female, Men will want to sleep with you period! Its in their make-up, however and with that said, I believe that many woman like to play dress up not only to attract men but to “one up” other woman if you will, as woman can be very competive towards one another. Woman like to check out other woman, lets face it. We like to see what and whom they are wearing and so on. As for men being attracted to the half dressed females around, I have seen men attracted to woman are totally covered, to some woman who are by others opinions, considered unattractive even using the word Ugly to describe them, even to woman who are obese, even IF they do not admit it or be seen in public with these woman, the attraction is there for them. Who are we to say what someone is attracted to is right or wrong, it is what it is, and for them, it is a turn on. Think Foot Fetish and so on.
    A plain woman can walk down the street and be ogled by a man …some will say, Men are Men.
    If a woman makes does well for herself in any industry, there will always be someone out there to think her a Bitch and want to bring her down a peg or two and sadly it is often another woman. Today woman DO NOT support other woman. One has to wonder why?
    As for what Ms. Church has said here, I think its about time someone did and AMEN to HER for doing so, and hopefully the Men who read this, are mature despite their age, and secure in whom they are, to give her the kudos’ she deserves for she is not only doing so for these famous woman, but your MOTHER, SISTER, DAUGHTERS and the Woman whom you will one day claim to love beyond all and so on, so please think twice before you allow your fingers to do the typing for you!
    For without a Woman…YOU WOULD NOT BE HERE!


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  130. Storry

    LoL for the language police out there, Yes I know see my errors but will not apologize as I was on a roll if you will lol A sense of humor goes a long way and from what I hear, is considered to be a sign of intellegence…phew I can only hope LOL
    Have a great DOY…;)))


    Reply
  131. Pingback: Charlotte Church: The Music Industry Demoralizes Women | SamacharYuG.Com

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  133. Ben

    One of the main areas of concern here is that this is so applicable to men to. Women complain about being sexualised but don’t really give a shit when a half naked man in Calvin Klein boxer shorts with a chizzled jaw line and 6 pack pops up. Feminism has never been so relevant than today and also contradicts itself. Society has been conditioned to view things in a specific way and to see things as sexual. Just because someone is almost naked doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a bad thing, it’s just that we perceive it as such. Another main area of focus is through expressionism, having the ability to express themselves how ever they see fit. The more we view subjects like this as a deviant the more of a negative affect it has.


    Reply
    1. AKM

      I am a feminist, and I take just as much offense to a guy with six pack abs in boxer shorts in an add as I do to a anorexic woman in her panties with angel wings and sex tousled hair. Both instances are unfair representations of both sexes and are completely unappealing to me. NO ONE looks like that unless they are starving themselves silly, or dedicating their entire day to working out. It’s crap. Feminism is about equality for men and women, not one or the other.


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  134. Keri

    I don’t claim to be a feminist. Mostly because I do like men and I know not all of them are idiots, and I think for myself.
    The oversexulization of women in our society leads to them being looked at as sexual objects and not people. This damages how young men look at women. Young men tend to think that taking a girl on a few dates makes the woman “owe them” sex. It didn’t used to be that way. Men used to have respect for women and for their reputations. And that was in the “the good ol’ days, when women didn’t have so many of the options we do today outside the home.
    The point is really taking a human being and turning them into an anatomically correct barbie – for the pleasure of the male audience. It’s the idea that women should all act like and look like these performers.
    I don’t watch music videos anymore because they’ve gone from hinting at things to almost being porn. I don’t want to see butt cheeks and everyone’s photoshopped butt cheeks and boobs and thighs. As a woman, I simply find this type of portrayal of women offensive and unnecessary.
    It’s a problem because LITTLE GIRLS – i’m talking elementary school – want to look “Sexy” have you SEEN some of the clothing in department stores for little girls these days? It’s a pedophile’s dream!
    We need to change the way our society sees and uses women if for no other reason for the younger generations seeing that you can be strong, independent and successful without bearing your entire body.

    I have little respect for women in music videos or other media who feel they must be sexy to the max to sell records…or even perfume! (I have even less respect for those who create the videos/photoshopped pictures)


    Reply
    1. Keri

      This actually is an issue for men too. there are plenty of young men out there who suffer from eating disorders and have body image problems due to super fit – six pack bearing male models. No one should have to show it all unless it actually IS porn.


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  135. Am I too old?

    I remember a world before music videos where people just listened to music and decided what was good through their ears and not their eyes. I don’t want to see men or women thrusting their private (key word) parts at me just to make a record sale. If a song is no good without a raunchy video, does a video make it better? Apparently so. I have worked in a world where women were paid less because they were women, thankfully that situation no longer exists, and where mysogeny was rife and probably still is. It was not a nice world.

    I am not a rampant feminist and would like everyone, whatever race, creed or gender to be treated equally, so I guess that makes me an optimist, if I have to be an ‘ist’. So off you all go, attack me for being old, ugly, fat, stupid, how do you know who or what I am, maybe I am just a little bit right and that offends you. Thank you for reading this far, and may the deity of your choice look fondly on you.


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  136. John

    Why have video crap attached to songs apart from trying to cover shit voices with porn. Go back to the days of real music and singing, which was about the music and voice quality, not who can make the most outrageous video.


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  137. Roxy

    Thank-you Charlotte for talking about what I imagine many women in music are afraid to, for fear of being branded a whining feminist. It has always seemed sad to me, the trajectory of some female pop stars, particularly when they struggle to maintain their sex appeal as they age and as a consequence lose credibility as an artist. When you base everything on sex appeal – when that goes, what do you have? Britney Spears is a bit like that. The only way she has managed to pull herself out of the gutter career wise is to maintain that teenage, girl next door look which will have next to nothing to do with her real identity now, if it ever even was. Sometimes when I see pictures of her in those ridiculous (and tacky) outfits I can’t believe she’s a mother. I don’t care how revealing it is, its the fact that it is so steeped in the past and what the basis of that teenage appeal used to be for the masses. Her bosses must be afraid to reinvent her like they do with so many others – perhaps they’re focused only on shedding the image of her as a ‘psycho’, shaving her head. I know it’s ridiculous but when that happened I thought, ‘no wonder’. That woman has been prostituted by her family and the industry at large since she was a child. Its the disposability of using sex to sell that destroys the artist in the end. Unless you’re Madonna and you manage to near enough mutilate yourself in order to maintain ‘youthfulness’ – but anyhow, she’s only ended up being branded an ‘old slag’. You’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t.


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  138. Popper

    Go Charlotte – I think it’s brave and admirable to be so outspoken and it’s sad that over a hundred years after getting the right to vote we still have to make these speeches, have these conversations and put up with such blatant sexism, objectification and ignorance.
    I’m certainly going to be censoring what my young girls are going to be listening to/watching.


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  139. Funny_bunny

    Miley, Rihanna, Madonna, Beyonce, Britney… We can go on forever… No one, and i mean NO ONE, put a GUN TO THEIR HEAD AND SAID, DANCE! DANCE MONKEY!! No! They did it all by themselves. Just like porn stars, film stars, musicians, etc… This is a free world, and just as you are free to develop or divulge your opinion, these women are free to fuck for fun, money, music, or whatever. You advocate it’s your body, you are empowered, etc…? Well that’s exactly what they’re doing.


    Reply
    1. Aladar

      Arguable. Can you really claim you know what happens behind the scenes? Britney started out as a somehow innocent act of a high-school girl, and while growing up became increasingly sexualized. It may have been her own doing, but I would not be surprised if she was told by the execs that she needs to show off her body if she wants to make it big. And that’s not okay.


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  140. Anonymous

    It’s all about sex, and sex is all about money. If you want to make money you sell your sex. It’s a commodity. Male artists sell the same. Sex sells. Take the money and run. It will not change… ever.


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  141. Andrew

    She’s absolutely right about gender inequality in the music industry and objectification, but there are too many problems I have with her examples. First one I noticed was that she claims that there’s an increasing trend for more childlike sex objects, but only brings up two instances that are 10 years apart.
    Then I looked up the two music videos she compared, and Church completely lost me at that point, mostly because she was claiming it would be easier to explain Bjork’s video to a child. First off, the “masturbation simulation” Church refers to in Dirrty is not that obvious, especially for a kid to figure out, unless you already know what “get me off” means. I don’t think the kid would even notice or ask about the gesture, because it just looks like normal choreography if you’re not old enough to understand it (grabbing the belt of their pants with a finger). That’s besides the point though, because explaining why someone would pierce themselves all over their body is a lot harder to explain to a kid than sexual pleasure. Pagan Poetry is in no way shape or form more appropriate for kids than Dirrty. Neither are appropriate for kids, but for different reasons. Not very many kids could be scarred by the images in Dirrty, but images in Pagan Poetry are incredibly stressful and way too much for an immature person to handle.
    In my opinion, it doesn’t help to attack artists who are using sexuality in their videos. It just sounds petty, like she’s annoyed that people are into what she deems as bad music, so the only explanation must be sex appeal. In my opinion the focus should be on the scummy people in the music industry that won’t support female artists without sex appeal. Behavior like shaming female artists into taking off more clothes should be seen as unacceptable, but the artists themselves choosing to be sexual shouldn’t be an issue.


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    1. Aladar

      Indeed. I think the article started out really good, pointing out the obvious problems of most big popstars almost bordering with being strippers, but then devolved into “stop liking what I don’t” and masturbating to “artsy” videos while putting them on a pedestal. It’s sad, because the article does have a point. However, censoring art and someone’s self-expression (and believe me, not every sexualized band/act is forced by some executive, there’s plenty of VERY sexual, almost pornographic acts in the underground scene that just chose to be that way) is not a way to go. Art was meant to push boundaries, discouraging people from that is just dumb.

      Fixing the problem does not lie in censorship or public discouragement. Never did.


      Reply
  142. I'm an idiot

    What I’ve learned from reading the comment thread on this article is that both men and women, feminists and chauvinists, are seemingly incapable (or at least unwilling) to make any sort of reasonable argument. Every comment that I read either had no basis for it’s assertions, no logical structure to it’s argument, and/or was filled with clear fallacies. I must be an Idiot, because I don’t understand how people on the internet are able to post this nonsense un-ironically (thus why this post is ironic).

    The article on the other hand was alright; It wasn’t particularly insightful, but it wasn’t stupid as shit either.


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  143. Dez Crawford

    The problem is that marketing women sexually is not AN option to fame. It is THE option to fame. If she were trying to break into the music scene today, Janis Joplin would be told to style her hair, take off 80% of her clothes, starve herself to near-death, dance, and by all means slather on the makeup and do SOMETHING with that hair! And we would never have heard her amazing talent. Same would be true of Joan Baez, Carly Simon, Emmylou Harris, Heart, and so many other talents who chose to perform music rather than put on a sex show.

    It doesn’t bother me that SOME female singers sex it up for fame. It’s the fact that shedding you clothes, dancing, and acting like a slut is n ow considered far, far more important than your vocal range, writing your own music and lyrics, playing an instrument and displaying you talent instead of your ass. That is seldom even a CHOICE anymore. And that’s sad.


    Reply
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  145. Chris

    Quite simply this is horse shit. The music industry is not made up completely by men and more importantly men are not the only ones who purchase CD’s, the Artist themselves make these decisions based on what sells and that is also selling to women. This is a socialist problem and not a sexual one. The only people who can change this issue are the artists themselves. Anyone can write a song about anything they like or is it perhaps that because there is actually very little talent out there, the likes of this singer has to purchase her material and she feels the only ones that sell are the ones about sex?…. try writing your own then, then there wouldn’t be an issue!


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  146. Bill

    The comments in this posting, unfortunately, represent the insecurities of so many men – you know the type: “rough, tough and in control.” The fact is everyone, women and men, deserves to be treated with respect at all times. If you don’t agree with this simple fact, then you have a serious problem that needs to be addressed before you hurt someone or yourself.


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  147. Jules

    Well done to Charlotte Church for making a stand. More than anything I am worried about the pressure on all children and women to portray themselves sexually above all else and live up to some kind of perfection they can not. Contributing to our girls and women of all ages becoming affected by body dysmorphia., eating disorders and other mental health issues. I ask our sisters across the world to tell the middle aged music moguls and the women who collude to f… right off. Thanks Charlotte


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  148. Graham Slater

    Just think how much better off you’d have been if you had good management ….. someone like ….. Oh I don’t know ….. Jonathan Shalit ???


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  149. Damien

    Sex always has and always will sell over everything. For example the average guy listen to what they like, the only reason they would listen to a chick like Rihanna, is if she showed skin, his girl liked Rihanna, or he legitimately enjoyed her music which is hardly ever the case. It’s how you appeal to the entire audience. It’s marketing strategy at it’s finest, you can’t change human nature lol. Male mammals like things butt, boobs, curves, abs, all that. It’s hormones, it’s biology, we see, we like, we watch lol. There is no shame in it, a Male rapper for example raps to females, because they are the prime target audience, if the females like it, the men respond to what they like and in turn listen to form a common bond. Same for women, they naturally will attract the female audience, because they sing about love, love loss, and happiness. They have to draw in the male audience some how, might not be glamorous, or ideal. But, if you want to be the ” it girl” you have to appeal to everyone, not just who you want to appeal to. The Industry is an auction you slut yourself to it. If you can’t handle that, then it’s not for you. It’s not demoralizing, women all signed up for it, it’s in their contract. All I see is someone who didn’t want to show off her body, and isn’t getting the attention she wants.


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  150. Rich Briere

    There should be a LAW/RULE that everyone who comments can only use their Real Name…..Some of you guys are simply unbelievable….and if your name was there for all to see, women would be dragging your sexist butts into the streets and giving you a sound thrashing. Consider yourselves lucky that you can hide behinf an alias. :-/


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  151. The Truth hurts?

    So the filthy rich woman who didn’t find a cure for cancer or do anything except make a noise that some might like thinks the world’s unfair. Yes, earning millions for doing something mundane and getting the oxygen of publicity just because people fawn over you…some might think that’s unfair too.

    The let’s pretend ‘industry and the ‘make a noise to make a fortune; industries are utterly vacuous…but nobody is forced into it and they have far easier lives than the majority of ordinary, well adjusted and fame indifferent people. Had life too easy and just wants to use the oxygen of publicity to have a whinge.

    People die, get terribly hurt and plenty of important stuff happens…but the poor little rich kid who got older wants to have a rather tiresome ‘ I’m a victom’ whinge….get a perspective millionaire moaner.


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  152. ChrissyinNY

    Well said.


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  153. SweetNightmare

    This is why I don’t buy music from hypersexualized artists. Evanescence gets by fine without sexualizing their lead woman. Why can’t other artists? Oh, that’s right, they would need talent instead of mediocrity topped with beasts.


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  154. William

    You know what, I don’t care. I don’t care about a sexualised narcissistic greed induced industry where artistic talent is mistaken for human value. I don’t care whether semi-pornographic music videos are made because they are superficial replacements for genuine musical talent. If you are a young women or man and you want the want fame, fortune and all the trappings of celebrity, then accept the bondage that goes with. Your greed, is the determining factor for your own depravity, do not blame anyone else.


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  155. William

    Supply and demand. Women give it because men want it, sad but true. Let’s say women took control of their bodies, harnessed their strong sexuality and to put it crudely, closed their legs then what would men do? Pathetic creatures that we are we would find some other way to exploit you.


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  156. Will Russell

    Women are allowed to fill any role in the entertainment industry they’d like. For instance, Florence Welch of Florence and the Machine, Christina Perri, Niko Case, HAIM. All of these female artists are pursuing their musical dreams and fit none of the genres you listed above. Those which you listed serve as the more prevalent roles only because the women in them understand that men are genetically a sexual being and, because of that, will instinctively gravitate towards it. While I agree it is easier for women to make a living in that industry of the aforementioned roles you described, they are by no means limited to them.


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  157. Anonymous

    So who’s sexual fantasy is it? Cause as far as i can tell its overwhelmingly prodominately women buying this shit. Woman must admire trashy sluts. They are just conforming to what the market demmands. It doesnt work the other way round.
    and i dont have to imagine what it would be like if it happened to man: Ricky fucking Martin


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  158. Alex

    Just wanted to add my name to the list of men who don’t wallow in this cesspit of misogyny.

    If you are trivializing these issues as ‘attention seeking’ or some form of extremism then at best you are a shallow, ignorant and selfish prick.
    I take comfort in the knowledge that your viewpoint is going to die out, as no self respecting woman is going to want anything to do with you.
    Is your stubborn sexism because you feel entitled to respect that you are incapable of earning for yourself? Perhaps you feel the only way you could ever get with a woman is to live in a society where they are incapable of saying no to you? Stop trying to suppress half the population because of your own personal inadequacies!


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  159. Ric

    Girl, be “the change you which to see in the World”


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  160. R.P.

    blah, blah, blah. To each is own, you fascists.


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    1. Kim

      What a ridiculous response. To each his own. Do you say that about racism too? Try using your brain!


      Reply
  161. Anonymous

    I have to laugh looking at the male responses to this post and comments. You are doing nothing but showing how right she is! Love it-keep it up!


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  162. Sheila MacArthur

    This type of feminist article is the “bad cop”. She puts the oh-so-guilty parties on defense. Then the good cop feminist comes along, not ranting, with both great determination and true warmth, the proverbial cool chick — and she hits that blessed middle ground. Folks can get off defense, turn their offense into positive change for women, and take some steps forward toward a more equal industry. This happens in every industry. It works. Therefore, bravo for speaking out so forcefully.


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  163. Elorias

    Stop listening to the maddening and sexist pop songs, the woman bashing hip hop culture, and start listening to metal and mostly rock. Wall of Jericho, Arch Ennemy, Nightwish, Epica, The Gathering, Smashing Pumpkins, Garbage, etc and you will find a whole music industry where women are artists, lead singers, guitarists, bassists etc and are not specifically asked to show and marketize their body.
    There are still some problems, but it as nothing to do with Rihanna, Miley Cirus, Brittney Spears, the hip hop sexist videos, etc.


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  164. Anonymous

    I’d have more respect for Church and her views, were it not for the fact that her fame – which gives her a platform from which to rant – comes from having comprehensively milked the system she is now slagging off.


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  165. Noel

    I’ll immediately grab your rss feed as I can not to find your email subscription link or newsletter service.
    Do you have any? Kindly allow me realize in order that I may just subscribe.
    Thanks.

    ได้ดูของฉันหน้าแรกนาฬิกา rolex


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  166. Pe Sa

    Charlotte Church left herself behind and made herself into a victim. Im so sick of everyone being a damn victim. both male and female alike. Why don’t you millionare performers, establish your own record and publishing companies. Be concert promoters and help your fellow women along in this very difficult industry. Men are not going to change very much. Start helping yourself out. Hire more women in your new companies, more female singers, writers and musicians.stop all the complaining and start doing something about your situation. Being a victim shows men you are weak and vulnerable. Be a leader and not a follower Miss Church. Lead by example.


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  167. Pe Sa

    Grow up Miss Church.


    Reply

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