Top iPad Music Apps (a/o February 8th):
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CD Baby may be busy defending the DIY artist, but this is not a crowd that Topspin is pursuing. "Our customers are not artists. Our customers are marketers," Topspin chief Ian Rogers clarified to Digital Music News earlier this week. "Today those marketers are one of label, distributor, management company, marketing services company, or yes, the artist themselves. But we don't focus on artists as our customer base any more than Pro Tools did."
But hasn't Topspin billed itself as a Pro Tools solution for music marketing since the beginning? "Pro Tools was the tool for professional producers and engineers first and foremost," Rogers continued. "Did a ton of artists learn how to use it? Absolutely. But they built and marketed the product for pros first. That's our approach as well."
The clarification separates Topspin from a crowded class of DIYers that also includes ReverbNation, TuneCore, and Bandcamp, among many others. But the serious question is whether these platforms can guide solo success, or if more complicated teams and divisions of labor are required. "We believe in an emerging middle class of professional artists and we're gearing up specifically to serve them," Rogers continued. "We recognize that isn't what most people want to hear - they want to talk about the democratization and how the Long Tail is going to rise up, or about the lumbering giants - but we see the opportunity right in the middle of those two."
Comments Closed
Maxwellian Wednesday, August 11, 2010
Glad Rogers is saying something here though he may be getting some blow-back. There used to be this mad rush for the Topspin platform - as in - something people could just hop into. I know because artists I knew were asking me about this all the time. Well this is it folks! Don't do this at home ;)
Ignacio Wednesday, August 11, 2010
Actually I think the original plan was to make this a tool any artist could use? Not exactly sure.
Anyway people can get certification on the platform at Berklee or something, but this is totally different than RN. You have to make a serious commitment, and it is much better to find a marketing partner who has run the platform b4.
artistmanager3 Thursday, August 12, 2010
Even though there appears to be some pushback by some against the feasibility of the fully D.I.Y model, it's still likely that a lot of musicians will have to take that road by design or default (i.e., choosing to do it without a team, or not being able to find/attract a team). For those, using these tools/apps/services is probably more efficient than doing things manually. I think the pushback has less to do with the tools/apps themselves, and more to do with the perception that they are sold as easy "plug-and-play" solutions.
I do notice a renewed emphasis on D.I.W.O (doing-it-with-others) by those who recognize the difficulty of pure D.I.Y.
Jeremy
Artist Management Resource
simple_man Thursday, August 12, 2010
...agreed Jeremy. right, what are you supposed to do if you are 17 and just starting a band? call Ian and arrange a meeting? Get Irving interested? This sometimes can happen, anything can happen, but otherwise you gotta create the early action yourself on your own then hope to draw more pros. Enter d i y.
so then, next question is why the issue with d i y in the community. The tools are actually pretty good, esp Reverb Nation imho, but I think these guys are getting in trouble (not blaming them for this necessarily) because all the added expectations added onto the whole mix.
CD Baby gets your songs distributed, really end of story. But: it must be recognized that there is a whole school of thought that says to artists that they can achieve old-style success all by themselves. so there's a backlash on that I think and rightfully so.
feldscott Thursday, August 12, 2010
I've been hearing this ProTools example coming out of Topspin for a while now. But it's just not a great comparison to give out.
The creators of ProTools originally designed a product meant for a high-end market. And they owned the high-end market. If you could afford to spend $10-$20k, you got a ProTools rig. But with the advent of processing power, more powerful solutions emerged from products like Cubase, SONAR, and Logic.
Suddenly the DIY market truly emerged, and DigiDesign saw the writing on the wall. They started offering downmarket products (ProTools LE, anyone?) that likely drove more revenue (to a wider base) than the high end stuff.
Today, ProTools is a strong brand with a mediocre product. Granted, it has huge name recognition. But other products run circles around it. Hmm. Maybe this is an apt example after all.
While Ian and Topspin talking about making a ProTools for music marketers, not DIYers, let's instead (and more importantly?) focus on a larger group of people looking to grow, engage, and succeed in the music industry's shifting paradigm.
Here at Nimbit we provide a solid, proven "ProTools" level opportunity at a price point equivalent to my (t)rusty Tascam 4-track with the squeaky transport reel.
Nimbit and Topspin's customers are whoever benefits from the product, and your leads are whoever needs it -- artist, marketer, or both. That's the reality dictated by the example of ProTools (LE). We constantly and ferociously offer education and support for our artists (and marketers!) so that when they grow through success and start looking for a "ProTools" caliber solution, they realize they've already got it ... with Nimbit.
--Scott Feldman/Dir. of Marketing (Nimbit)
scott@nimbit.com
Gern Blanston Thursday, August 12, 2010
Scott - what's the average amount of a transaction on Nimbit?
I believe Topspin has publicly stated that average transactions on their platform is $20 and in some cases above $50. Why? Because the folks using the platform on behalf of artists are savvy marketers. It seems that Nimbit and Topspin tools are similar in function, but it's the application of those tools that makes the difference.
feldscott Thursday, August 12, 2010
Gern -
Our average per customer purchase is lower than Topspin's, but (and this is a big but...), I would guess that Topspin's average is somewhat artificially high based upon the major label segment of their artist (and not marketer...) roster. Might be better to ask for the most frequent purchase price, rather than the mathematical average.
For example, if Paul McCartney is selling 100 "widgets" at $5,000 each, it's gonna raise that "average purchase" number pretty high even if the rest of Topspin was only selling 99 cent downloads. Know what I mean?
While I respect Sir Paul, and the rest of Topspin's roster, I'm less interested in what a guy with virtually limitless budget (and a legendary career) can accomplish. But then, I bet Paul uses ProTools too.
Nimbit artists, at many levels of fame/success, are effectively marketing, selling, and managing all aspects of their careers because of Nimbit. Our tools work for emerging talent just as well as they do for established acts.
--Scott
(scott@nimbit.com)
Jason S. Friday, August 13, 2010
I'm about as small-time a marketer as you can get, and my artist is so independent it hurts. I use Topspin to power his website. I recently launched a campaign with two t-shirts for $15 each (or both for $24), a limited edition vinyl reissue of his first album for $22, and a super-limited deluxe run of that LP as part of a 4-LP bundle for $60. By far, the most popular items have been the 4-LP bundle and the two-Tshirt bundle. Our average order is about $45. I'm willing to bet many other independent artists using Topspin have had the same result.
Topspin preaches the gospel of bundling, and I am a loyal disciple. Their back-end makes it really easy to create bundles and tiered offers, and their fee structure encourages users to take that route (the higher an order value, the lower a percentage Topspin charges you). It's not the "major label" artists that drive Topspin's high average order value...it's their model. It just works.
feldscott Friday, August 13, 2010
Jason - in that regard you raise a very interesting point. Smart artists with a marketing team (big or small) can benefit from using any Direct-to-Fan platform. The strengths/benefits of each one vary, as do the offerings. And while the average purchase cost could be higher via Topspin, it'd still be a more valid measurement to see the most frequent purchase price. On the Nimbit side, we have a number of artists with $15-25 average purchase prices. There're some with more, and of course some with less. Remember the Mark Twain line: "there're lies, damn lies, and statistics!"
But the point remains: To start on your own from scratch, or as a huge established success, the Topspin model is difficult to ramp up. It really does require a marketing/tech pro to make it all work, or you can take a class. But if you goal is to focus on the music, and you may already have a day job, do you have time for that? And more to the point, that class may not teach you all of the developer, marketing, and basic experiential skills you'll need for success in this industry.
Nimbit was developed to get your music/marketing/promo activities started quickly, with the least amount of necessary steps along the way, while offering a totally professional solution. That's a very different model from "our clients are marketers, not artists."
The "building" strategy isn't unique to any one company. In fact, I'd highly recommend you take a peek at Nimbit's D2F-U (Direct-to-Fan University) for a slew of qualified articles built around topics and categories most relevant to artists and music professionals. No login needed and totally free -- just our way to offer some easy help and suggestions.
http://www.nimbit.com/get-educated/
Jason S. Friday, August 13, 2010
I agree that the Topspin platform is not ideal for DIY artists. Nimbit may be a much better platform to fit their needs. In that respect, it serves a different market than Topspin. I think there's room for both to coexist in the new-music-industry ecosystem.
@thesessionspot (via Twitter) Thursday, August 12, 2010
I like it. @iancr in @digitalmusicnws: "Our customers are not artists, our customers are marketers"
Jason S. Thursday, August 12, 2010
As an ecommerce professional and Topspin user, I think Ian's clarification is right on the nose. To use Topspin effectively requires a fair amount of technical skill -- you must understand how to build a website (CSS, Javascript) and how to run a business (SKUs, pricing, fulfillment). Not to say Joe Musician doesn't know these things, but they're best left to a businessperson or developer who can apply a higher level of skills. Which is a GREAT thing, IMHO, because it frees up musicians to MAKE MUSIC. My biggest frustration with the Web's effect on music is that it's forced bands to become marketers, web developers, designers, accountants, social media experts, and brand executives. All that DIY work leaves less and less time for MAKING MUSIC, which any band must do continuously in order to grow and thrive. ReverbNation and its ilk facilitate the artist-DIY process. Topspin is geared toward letting a pro run the business, so the band can focus on being a band. That's what makes it stand out, and that's why I choose to use it.
Brian Peterson (Bandbox) Thursday, August 12, 2010
Here is an alternative view point to "artists as customers" and selling music online
Selling Music Online Isn’t Complicated...Unless You’re Using Topspin
-Brian Peterson (Co-Founder and CEO of Bandbox)
Jason S. Friday, August 13, 2010
What does this even mean? Selling music online is complicated no matter what platform you use. And I would argue that Topspin's "complexity" is to its benefit -- it requires a little more technical knowledge than a Reverbnation (or a Bandbox), but it has so much more flexibility in terms of building a customized webpage, which lets bands (and marketers/developers/managers) optimize the site and make it more effective. You can do things with Topspin that you simpy CAN'T DO with a template-based platform. Trust me, I've tried a few different ones.
Also, don't forget that Topspin is more than a Store...it's got a suite of marketing tools for your email list and social-media presences, and it ties all the data together into really useful reports. Plus (and I can't overstate the value of this), Topspin has awesome customer service that is responsive and helpful. I'm not a shill, just a satisfied user who hates when people rag on Topspin with stupid comments like "oooh, it's so complicated". Yall just don't get it.
Jason S. Friday, August 13, 2010
I should amend my first sentence in the comment above....
Selling music online is complicated. Sure, putting your music up for sale is easy, as evidenced by Bandbox. But getting people to actually buy it is HARD. It requires smart web design, effective marketing, and compelling offers (usually bundled with merchandise). Bandbox doesn't do any of those things. Hooray, you can create a retail widget for a Myspace page! Snocap tried that in 2002, and guess what, it was a failure. If you wanna follow their footsteps, be my guest.
Also, I'm amused that you talk smack about the Berklee course that Topspin teaches. Do you know two-thirds of the course covers online marketing? That's the KEY to success -- learning how to convince people to buy your product. You advocate "no team of people, no marketing degree". That's no way to build a business, bro. That's a fucking lemonade stand.
feldscott Friday, August 13, 2010
Err, that's not what I advocate at all. And, for the record, I have nothing against lemonade stands or their operators.
I'm not saying you can be totally uneducated or inexperienced and Nimbit (or Topspin) can turn you into a success. That would be ridiculous.
And I wouldn't knock Berklee either -- my alma mater. But Nimbit and Topspin share a large amount of functionality -- and our users don't need to take a class to effectively work with our tools.
Ease of use is critical as is the power of the platform. But the more you lack that ease, the platform's power becomes irrelevant.
Jason S. Friday, August 13, 2010
Scott: I was referring to Brian Peterson of BandBox and the idiotic self-promotional article he posted in the comment above. I don't have much familiarity with Nimbit, and I'm not trying to criticize it. My sarcasm was directed toward BandBox and all the folks who think that a simple ecommerce solution is the magic bullet for bands to make money. Anyone can stand on the corner with a table and a cardboard sign. Doesn't mean they're gonna sell very much lemonade. On the other hand, if one person focuses on making REALLY GOOD lemonade, and they hire someone to design & build a great kiosk by the beach and reach out to citrus-flavored-beverage fans around the world, THAT's a recipe for good business.
And for the record, I did not take the Topspin class. Utilizing two years of do-it-yourself e-commerce/web design experience and a little thing called Google, I figured out how to use most of Topspin's tools myself. It's not hard. I have read the syllabus, though, and I know that the class isn't just about "how to use Topspin's tools". It's about how to run & track effective online-marketing campaigns, how to use analytics, and how to get a grasp of basic web design skills like CSS. Most importantly, it gives budding managers a chance to learn from each others' experience in a collaborative setting, and to build relationships, which can be invaluable. Point is, don't knock the Topspin class if you don't know what it truly entails.
feldscott Friday, August 13, 2010
I understand what the class entails, and I've seen the syllabus. To be really clear, my criticism of the class wouldn't be the online marketing lessons. In fact, I know people who paid around $1k and took the class expecting to learn how to use the Topspin offering (which was included with participation in the class).
Again, I don't discount the value of online marketing instruction -- not by a long shot.
They were disappointed that at the end, they learned a lot about online marketing, but not enough on how to use the platform -- which was a prime motivator in signing up for the class.
Powerful tools that're difficult to use really aren't powerful tools. Whether you need a class, years of marketing/tech experience, or a team around you to use them -- it's still problematic for a large number of musicians caught in the Catch-22 of needing the tools without team/resources available to operate 'em.
For them, as well as artists and marketers at any level of success, there's Nimbit. No classes required, but plenty offered...
@thewordpainter (via Twitter) Thursday, August 12, 2010
artists dont have the $$... "Our customers are not artists. Our customers are marketers" - Topspin CEO Ian Rogers to @digitalmusicnws
Delph Thursday, August 12, 2010
Anyone know what happened w/ this Ian project?
http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2009/11/topspins-ian-rogers-becomes-an-artist-manager.html
@MaximumMusic (via Twitter) Thursday, August 12, 2010
Food for thought
ian c rogers Monday, August 16, 2010
Wow. Thanks everyone for caring enough to discuss our approach. Sorry to be chiming in late.
I admit I'm a little surprised multiple folks took this as an opportunity to make a "Topspin is hard to use" argument, but that's my fault, I left that door wide open.
In response I posted a video of a short session with Topspin from this evening as well as a blog post clarifying my position a bit (I hope). Check it out over on our blog:
Readers Digest/Cliff/Spark Notes version:
- Topspin is easy to use
- The courses we offer don't teach how to use the software nearly as much as they teach how to run an effective campaign
- We believe strongly in our focus on professional marketers but are also looking forward to many of those professional marketers being the artists themselves
But please take a read through my blog post and most importantly watch the video I shot tonight and decide for yourself if Topspin's software looks difficult to use or not.
Thanks again for the continued interest in what we're working on at Topspin. Please feel free to subscribe to our mailing list (upper right of our blog page) and we'll drop you a line weekly with updates on our goings on.
Also, if you'd like to stop by and discuss any of this in person please join us Tuesday evening at 5:30pm as New York's Ida will be joining us for a rare LA show in our Santa Monica office. Hope to see you there.
Sincerely,
ian
Corey Ellis Monday, August 16, 2010
I took the topspin class this spring. I work primarily as a booking agent looking to offer more tools to help our artists be more successful. I have a fair amount of tech/web knowledge (can't hand code anything but know enough to find examples and change them).
I LOVE topspin. Like Ian said the class was really a music marketing class that taught you how to use topspin as a tool for said marketing. The topspin piece was secondary in my opinion. The basics of topspin are straight forward but if you want to dive in you can do some powerful stuff.
I felt like this discussion was missing some opinion from a beginner user so I wanted to chime in.
Andrew McCluskey Wednesday, August 18, 2010
I caught this a little late too - but as another TopSpin user - I've gotta say - where the hell does the idea that using TopSpin is hard come from?
Upload track - edit data - create widget - set colors - paste code - collect emails - track stats - errrr...sorry - did we make it out of kindergarden yet?
From my experience in making and marketing music the hard thing has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with time. The DIY music marketer eventually hits a walll because you can't do everything - to turn round and say that this is a failure of the software is ridiculous. People will use any excuse not to take responsibility for their actions - and @Scott:
"But the point remains: To start on your own from scratch, or as a huge established success, the Topspin model is difficult to ramp up. It really does require a marketing/tech pro to make it all work, or you can take a class. "
Don't know what you're smoking mate but you're wrong.
I can't comment on Nimbit as I haven't spent time with the product - but you come across as a little disingenuous here - maybe staying above the mudslinging and just pointing out the strengths of your product might serve your company better.
Andrew
Mike Monday, August 16, 2010
Hey,
I wanted to weigh in quickly on this. I wrote the Topspin course here at Berkleemusic, and it's not accurate to say that "Topspin is so difficult to use you need a course on it." What is difficult is differentiating yourself, from a marketing standpoint, from all the other bands out there in a very crowded space. The Online Music Marketing with Topspin course looks at best practices across the board, from building and optimizing your own site, increasing your 3rd party digital touchpoints, ways to forecast potential sales based on these touchpoints, and integation of other physical and digital initiatives (and more). We then look at how Topspin's toolset can help an artist advance their sales and marketing campaigns in all of these areas. To be clear, I wrote and teach other online courses that cover details on Nimbit, Bandcamp, Reverbnation and others as well, and I think it's slightly disingenuous to single out the Topspin-focused course as a reason to say that Topspin is too difficult for artists/managers/others to use.
Mike King
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